A short while ago, I did a linear regression on LSAT scores and IQ’s to make a comparison. I am now doing the same thing to compare GRE Verbal scores to IQ’s.
The GRE verbal section correlates better with traditional IQ tests than its other sections. From the Prometheus report on test acceptances (Section 8.6.5):
The GRE is comprised of three subtests: Verbal, Quantitative and Analytic sections. Each GRE score is a value that is independent of when the score was obtained. Scores are “scaled” based on performance on the test and the properties of the individual test itself. All General (Aptitude) Test scores are reported on this same scale. A verbal ability score of 550 earned in 1972 will, therefore, for example, be equivalent to a verbal ability score of 550 earned in 1982. Several different editions, or forms, of the General (Aptitude) Test are in active use in the GRE program at any given time. Over several years many different forms will be used. Compensation for variations in difficulty among these forms of the test are taken into account when the number of correct answers are converted to the scaled score. This supports direct comparisons of performance of examinees taking different forms of the test . . .
. . . The GRE is somewhat similar to the SAT in having a wide constituency in the United States and in having verbal and mathematical subtests. It has been shown to correlate well with many standard IQ tests such as (the verbal subtest) with the MAT and in the combined score pairs reported in the norming data for the Mega reported above . . .
The SAT verbal section correlates with traditional IQ tests at .8, which, at that correlation (only IQ tests correlate with each other at that level), makes the SAT verbal section nothing less than an IQ test. The GRE verbal section is harder than the SAT verbal section; it’s reasonable to think that the GRE verbal section correlates just as well with traditional IQ tests.
However, the SAT quantitative section correlates with traditional IQ tests at no more than .7, which makes it a weaker measure of intelligence (though it still is pretty good). The GRE quantitative section is much easier than the SAT quantitative section. So it’s reasonable to think that the GRE quantitative section correlates even less than .7 with traditional IQ tests.
The moral of the story is that the GRE Verbal section is a great measure of intelligence for those who are native, or non-native, well-versed, English speakers.
So I scoured the high IQ societies and found that a number actually accept the GRE verbal section by itself. The ISI-Society does so with two points: a 790 verbal score is equivalent to a 148 IQ, and a 700 verbal score is equivalent to a 137 IQ (assuming SD is 15). I’m taking these two point from this one society for the internal consistency. My third point comes from the verbal score average—historically about 470—corresponding to a college graduate average IQ of 105. Having more points would be better, but this will work for now.
My slope is 0.13531211750306, and my intercept is 41.5960832313339. We can round them to .135, and 41.596. The resulting equation is IQ = .135*Verbal + 41.596. The following is a incomplete chart; the decimal places don’t imply greater accuracy:
800 +148
790 148
780 147.139534883721
770 145.78641370869
760 144.43329253366
750 143.080171358629
740 141.727050183599
730 140.373929008568
720 139.020807833537
710 137.667686658507
700 137
690 134.961444308446
680 133.608323133415
670 132.255201958384
660 130.902080783354
650 129.548959608323
640 128.195838433293
630 126.842717258262
620 125.489596083231
610 124.136474908201
600 122.78335373317
I would advise anyone using this chart to drop the decimal points. For example, if you scored a 630 verbal score, then take your IQ to be roughly 126 and neither a 126.8 nor 127.
dimples
1 March 2009
—-”I’m assuming a 15 SD for all IQ scores. The LSAT average is historically between 150-151. I’ll choose 151 to be generous. Inductivist calculated that the average college graduate’s IQ is a 105. So the last data point is a 151 LSAT score corresponding to a 105 IQ.”—-
Interesting data in the pdf at the bottom of the following site:
http://lsacnet.lsac.org/Research/Factors-in-Performance-on-Law-School-Admission-Test-LSAT-ES.htm
The data shows that among 4,500 subjects who took both the GRE and the LSAT in 1991, the mean LSAT was about 155 and the mean GRE-V was about 560.
Based on this equivalence and your GRE-V to IQ conversion formula: LSAT155 = GRE-V560 = ~IQ117.
Lover of Wisdom
1 March 2009
Thanks, dimples. I’ll take a look at it. It is, however, important to remember that those means are for a group that took both tests, which is, by definition, a group different from those general populations that only take one or the other. So I wouldn’t be surprised to see higher mean scores on the LSAT and GRE-V for the former group; it’s a self-selected group.
dimples
1 March 2009
I see your point… but still, if we assume 151 = 105IQ = GRE470, then we would (1) predict a much lower value than 560 for any LSAT population scoring at 155, and (2) a much higher value than 155 for any GRE population scoring at 560. The assumption that 151 = 105IQ thus seems questionable.
Lover of Wisdom
2 March 2009
Hi dimples:
It could also be the other way around: the GRE-V(470) = 105 IQ might be questionable. I would still be worried about the following though: The general testing population of the GRE includes internationals, or those who aren’t very good with English, etc., while those that take the LSAT are a self-selected population of native-English speakers, or at least very well acquainted with the English language (internationals or those not good with English aren’t bothering to be lawyers). So the LSAT population is substantively different from the general GRE population, and, therefore, different from the general GRE-V population. This would explain why the LSAT(155) = GRE-V(560) seems strange to me. This testing group, who took both tests, tested on average slightly less than a half standard deviation above the mean on the LSAT, but roughly three-fourths a standard deviation above the mean on the GRE-V. The discrepancy can be explained by the fact that the GRE-V is skewed with a upward bias for English speakers; english speakers are going to test higher above the mean on the GRE-V because of the bias against the non-native-English speakers.
I think what this might show, which has been my personal feeling on the matter, is that my GRE-V to IQ chart is less accurate than my LSAT to IQ chart, because of the GRE-V mean being lower than it should for all the non-English speakers that have taken it. This explains your (1) and (2). The way to accurately fix this problem would be to somehow find data that discerns the native- from non-native-English speakers on the GRE-V.
dimples
2 March 2009
Lover of Wisdom:
“It could also be the other way around: the GRE-V(470) = 105 IQ…The discrepancy can be explained by the fact that the GRE-V is skewed with a upward bias for English speakers…while those that take the LSAT are a self-selected population of native-English speakers, or at least very well acquainted with the English language (internationals or those not good with English aren’t bothering to be lawyers)…”
Another possible factor is that the LSAT population is self-selected in another way, that the average LSAT-taker (151) has a higher IQ than the average college graduate (105) — just as the average applicant to a philosophy, economics or mathematics graduate program has an IQ that is higher than 105 — which would in turn call into question the LSAT to IQ conversion chart. That was my own assumption, not backed by any data — that GRE-V(470) = 105 IQ is more plausible than LSAT(155)=105IQ — but I agree with your point, which brings to light the problems with using a verbal test as a proxy for IQ where much of the test-taking population consists of non-native speakers.
Lover of Wisdom
2 March 2009
Hi dimples:
You’re right that self-selecting can occur with the LSAT test-taking population too. So I wouldn’t be surprised if the mean IQ for the LSAT group to be different from the GRE group, and it’s possible that it’s higher than the college graduate mean of 105 IQ. For any of the tests, it’s important to realize that the total college graduate population will have a mean IQ lower than the total graduate school applicant mean IQ, which will be lower than the total graduate student mean IQ.
I think the upshot is that we aren’t going to know with real certainty about the intelligence of LSAT and GRE test-takers until someone does a real study of IQ regarding to LSAT and GRE scores. However, I think the following is true: My GRE-V to IQ chart will likely over-predict IQ’s from verbal scores at the lower end; my LSAT to IQ chart will likely under-predict IQ’s from LSAT scores at the lower end.
Dan
15 March 2009
Even if you attempt to correlate the GRE verbal section with IQ, then what do you make of a person that scores 450 Verbal and 700 Quantitative? You really think this person’s IQ is about 105? Although, you might be onto something – this could potentially explain Gardner’s MI theory (I’m assuming you are familiar with it; if you aren’t you should be). The idea of “g” is a flawed concept invented by the western scientific world. So even if you find correlation amongst the GRE and IQ, you simply are confirming that one flawed concept correlates with another flawed concept.
Lover of Wisdom
15 March 2009
Hi Dan:
We have plenty of people that have that kind of score breakdown—they are called internationals attending the Engineering and Physics departments; they don’t have enough of a command of the English language to be properly assessed for verbal ability. It we wanted to know their IQ, then we would give them a culture-fair test. As I say in my above post, this analysis is strictly for those that are native English speakers. If one is a native English speaker and has a score breakdown of that magnitude, then it’s likely that that person also has some learning disability, e.g., dyslexia. Also, the asymmetry hardly exists. It implausible that someone will score a 700 V and 450 Q.
I know Garner’s MI theory. Unfortunately, if you take g to be flawed, then you will have to take Gardner’s theory to be beyond flawed. It isn’t even a testable theory, which is why it’s never gained much traction in the scientific community. g has gotten the scientific community a lot of information.
No psychometrician worth his salt has argued that g is a perfect concept, much less IQ (an imperfect measure of one’s g). It is, however, highly correlative with many phenotypic and genotypic properties, e.g., brain-size. You should read this paper by Gottfredson: http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/2009fallacies.pdf.
Dan
15 March 2009
I would instead argue that the reason why Gardner’s MI theory has not found any traction in the scientific community is that it in many ways argues against the foundations of the scientific community. Think of it as one big system (i.e. the Matrix, if you will) – the western scientific world has invented this notion of IQ and call it “g” for general intelligence. But it is not a general intelligence, it is measuring specific intelligences such as logical-mathematical and linguistic types of intelligences. Then we have devised standardized tests like those you are referring to: GRE, SAT, LSAT, etc. and what are these standardized tests expected to measure…the “g” which as previously stated is not really a general test of intelligence but rather a test of narrowly defined intelligence based on logical-mathematical and linguistic forms of intelligences.
And then what do we do? Proceed to set up university programs at prestigious universities like Harvard or Stanford and the like, and then recruit those students that have scored high on these standardized tests that are measuring logical-mathematical and linguistic types of intelligences. And then these students go on and perform “shockingly” well (meaning that they are getting good grades) in a system designed to produce these types of results. And now we have an entire scientific community made up of these individuals such as yourself. Knowing that, why WOULD the scientific community support a different notion of IQ that largely discredits them? It’s all a self-contained system, so of course one aspect of said system will correlate with another aspect of the system. But that is all it is, a closed system. As Gardner would say, so what if one paper and pencil test correlates to another paper and pencil test!
Aiea
25 March 2009
GRE=IQ can never be accurate, the GRE and LSAT only test a narrow focus of study. One can do very poorly on verbal due to the vocabulary that few outside of academia ever use. Quantitative is largely algebra and geometry that outside of a high school math class nobody (most professions anyway) uses or needs. IQ tests and evaluations must include cultural and social variables. A high GRE score may indicate that an individual can do well on tests and in college, it does not mean that they can apply that info out in the real world where it counts. From the start there can be little correlation between IQ and some narrow focus test. Some of the worlds brightest high IQ holders would never pass the GRE or LSAT. That alone shows this idea is flawed from the start. The scientific community cannot accept the premise that GRE=IQ without redefining IQ.
Lover of Wisdom
25 March 2009
Hi Aiea:
“GRE=IQ can never be accurate, the GRE and LSAT only test a narrow focus of study. One can do very poorly on verbal due to the vocabulary that few outside of academia ever use.”
The LSAT, in particular, tests multiple cognitive abilities. There have been numerous studies on the LSAT and GRE, showing that these ability tests don’t have a narrow focus, considering that they positively correlate with many other things. The GRE verbal section correlates highly with traditional IQ tests; this is also true for the SAT verbal. Vocabulary is, in fact, one of the best measures of intelligence; it’s one of the highest correlates with IQ. Of course, I’m speaking of crystalized g here. Those who are native English speakers and have done poorly on the GRE verbal test are simply not that smart to begin with.
“IQ tests and evaluations must include cultural and social variables. A high GRE score may indicate that an individual can do well on tests and in college, it does not mean that they can apply that info out in the real world where it counts.”
I don’t see what the problem is. People with high GRE scores tend to do well in and out of school. That’s because people with high GRE scores are people with high IQ’s, and people with high IQ’s tend to do well in and out of school. The LSAT and GRE have cultural and social variables, unless you means something completely differently from me.
“From the start there can be little correlation between IQ and some narrow focus test. Some of the worlds brightest high IQ holders would never pass the GRE or LSAT. That alone shows this idea is flawed from the start. The scientific community cannot accept the premise that GRE=IQ without redefining IQ.”
That makes no sense, considering that people have already performed the necessary calculations to find correlations between the SAT, GRE, and IQ. You can find them by tracing some of the links I provided above. The SAT, GRE, and crystalized IQ correlate highly with each other. It’s as simple as that. We are dealing with the Law of Large Numbers here. It doesn’t matter if you find some outliers of high IQ people who don’t do extraordinarily well on the GRE—which by the way I find your claim incredibly hard to believe. You need to back that up with some real evidence.
One last thing. No where have I said above that GRE is one and the same as IQ, nor is it one and the same as crystalized and fluid g.
J
20 April 2009
Your assumption that the average GRE-V score is equivalent to the IQ of the average college graduate is incorrect. You have to remember that the people who CHOOSE to take the GRE are a cognitive slice off the top of the the cognitive distribution among college graduates. They are a self-selected group who plan to pursue graduate studies. Therefore, the person who chooses to take the GRE is (on average) more intelligent than the average college graduate — 105 is a low estimate for the GRE-V of 470.
GS
20 April 2009
http://www.megafoundation.org/Ultranet/scores.htm
GRE-V of 470 is considered equivalent to an IQ of 115.
aji
16 May 2009
My GRE verbal score was 510. The report noted that 60 percent of the test takers scored below my score. That score was better than 60 percent of a population that at least thought they had a chance at a graduate degree. While I agree that I am not a genius, my iq is higher than average. Using this conversion chart http://www.assessmentpsychology.com/iq.htm I believe my iq is 120, because I have take several of the assessments and the average is 120.
pj
19 August 2009
Great website! This doesn’t add much to the above, but as someone who’s been through the law school experience the percentage of lsat test takers that are not native English speakers would is very, very small; foreign language speakers typically almost without exception are applying for the ll.m.degree, which does not require the lsat to be taken for admission.
DB
5 September 2009
I scored 640 on the verbal section of the GRE and consider myself to be of average to slightly above average intelligence. According to the megafoundation.com chart, my IQ should be between 131 and 135. This is ridiculous. I am not that smart. Furthermore, studies on IQ and its correlation to success in life show that IQ is NOT a reliable indicator of success in life (two sources discussing this are the books “How We Decide” by Jonah Lehrer and “Outliers” by Malcolm Gladwell). Everyday common sense along with characteristics such as perseverance and social skills prove to be better measures. In short, there are a variety of factors that go into why some people succeed in life and some people fail that go way beyond what exam results tell us. To simply look at test results sorely misses the bigger picture and context of human beings and how we operate in the world.
israeliteknight
14 October 2009
Ain’t No Black Geniuses
NO Black ever scored 800 on GRE
The Graduate Record Examination (GRE) represents the highest scoring students in the nation, or at least it should, since it’s the test taken by college graduates seeking admission to graduate school. Over the last four decades, 3,961,122 students have taken this test, including 354,228 black students. Blacks are the only students who take this test where females have occasionally scored higher than males. In all that time, NO black student has ever scored 800 on ANY portion of this test, while 2.3% of White students scored higher than 800 in GRE Analytical, 10% of Asian men scored higher than 800 in GRE Quantitative, and 0.1% of White women scored higher than 800 in GRE Verbal.
The following analysis of the GRE makes the optimistic presumption that test scores for blacks follow a regular Gaussian Distribution, whereas reality is that very few blacks score much higher or much lower than the median Verbal score of 388 for black women. It accepts carte blanche, without question, the relatively large standard deviation for blacks reported by the College Board. It ignores that some state laws require a person to be counted as black if 1/64th of their genealogy is black. It doesn’t compensate for the number of blacks admitted through the now illegal affirmative action programs which permitted Whites to be admitted because they posed as blacks, which is bound to happen under such a fraudulent program, and which this author knows to have happened on at least two occasions. It doesn’t consider the academic theory that the reason American blacks have higher IQs than African blacks is their higher proportion of Caucasian genes, perhaps as much as 25%. If this theory is correct, then the 25 who scored higher than 654 in GRE Verbal, the 23 who scored higher than 716 in GRE Quantitative, and the 27 who scored higher than 746 on GRE Analytical, would not be black at all according to other blacks themselves because they would be mostly Caucasian.
SAT scores for Blacks lower than noise level
The SAT consists of one essay question which can be scored only by subjective means, opening it up to controversy about whether or not it’s valid or accurate. The most objective part of the test are the 225 five part multiple choice questions which attempt to measure the probability of a student succeeding in college or graduate school. About 1/4th of these questions can be answered strictly from rote memorization. For simplicity we include the results of the essay question in this part of the test. The other 3/4ths require some form of reasoning or calculation which can be measured objectively.
The base score of 200 is assigned when a student signs their name. Of the 600 points between 200 and 800, another 150 points can be gained by knowing the subjects but not exhibiting any reasoning or critical thinking skills, for a total score thus far of 350. If a person were to just guess on the balance of the five part multiple choice questions, he would on average get 20% of them correct just by chance, for another 90 points and a total score of 440.
This score of 440 is conservative. For example, in TIMSS physics, which is scored similarly and which has questions of equal validity and depth, the score of 474 for American girls represents a score for students who would have performed better if they’d just guessed on this part of the test.
So a score of 440, and possibly a score as high as 474, is not indicative of any reasoning or critical thinking skills at all. These skills are measured only between 440-474 and 800, with many Asian students (more than 10% of them) scoring higher than 800. This makes SAT a bad IQ test, particularly when American blacks consistently score lower than this, or 431 in both SAT Verbal and SAT Math, 391 in GRE Verbal, and 416 in GRE Quantitative.
Gaussian Distribution: MOST optimistic estimate of scores for Blacks
While the College Board provides the standard deviation for black students in both SAT and GRE, scores this low cannot be expected to follow a normal Gaussian Distribution. For the average to be 431, there can’t be too many students who score higher than this, because it’s almost impossible to score lower than this, so their estimate that the standard deviation, say for black women who took GRE Verbal, is 88, is the most optimistic estimate.
creme de la creme of American black women took GRE
http://christianparty.net/gre.htm
In 1997, 16,513 black women, the creme de la creme of American black women, took the Graduate Record Exam and proved once and for all that our multi-TRILLION dollar “investment” in educating blacks has been a colossal failure. It proved beyond the shadow of all doubt:
1. Blacks are patently, inheritably uneducable.
2. The multi-trillion dollar investment in their education was a COMPLETE waste.
3. Rather than improving education for anyone, it destroyed educational opportunities for everyone, but particularly Whites.
4. Rather than improving lives of blacks, it contributed to the almost complete destruction of black families.
I know, I know–a standardized verbal and quantitative test is not an iq test. I know that you get 200 points just for signing your name, so the test is already skewed right off the bat. I know that there are many noise level questions which even kindergartners can answer, which adds another 100 points. I know that many of the questions are multiple choice which means that a person who knows utterly nothing about the subject could get as many as 150 points just by guessing. So I DO recognize that a score of 450 is what a person who knows how to take tests, but knows NOTHING about the subject of the test, might “achieve”.
But black women scored lower than this on GRE Verbal, at 404. And black women scored lower than this on GRE Analytical, at 421. And black women scored MUCH lower than this on GRE quantitative, at 388. On these three different portions of the test, black women scored lower than if they’d just guessed.
AH, but, you say, there are SOME black geniuses. After all, George Washington Carver only a century ago got four patents for peanutbutter, and look at Congolese Rice and Colon Piles and Obama. They’re geniuses.
Maybe so. Maybe they didn’t take the GRE. Maybe black geniuses are so smart they manage to get into graduate school without even bothering with the Graduate Record Exam [or affirmative action mandated they not be required to take it] just like affirmative action permitted them to be admitted to undergraduate schools as MILLIONS of much more qualified White and Asian students were DENIED admission, a heinous act which the majority of the voters in California righteously outlawed with an amendment to our state constitution.
The creme de la creme of of blackhood, 16,513 black women, did so well in undergraduate school that they were permitted to take the GRE.
But NOT A ONE of them scored 800 on EITHER of these three parts of the GRE!
Does this make them geniuses? Not exactly. Only 25 scored higher than 654 in GRE Verbal, only 23 scored higher than 716 in GRE Quantitative and only 27 of them scored higher than 746 on GRE Analytical.
With NONE of them scoring 800 on ANY of these three portions of the test, NONE of these 16,513 black women could possibly be considered to be geniuses, could they?
So the crowning achievement of our multi-trillion dollar experiment to educate blacks, of the creme de la creme of 16,513 black women, less than 250 of them scored as high as the AVERGE Asian man on GRE Quantitative at 638, equivalent to an IQ of 112, less than 500 of them scored as high as the AVERAGE White man on GRE Verbal at 512, equivalent to an IQ of 81, and 84% of them scored LOWER than the AVERAGE Mexican male in GRE Analytical at 514, equivalent to an IQ of 82. Yet on some parts of GRE, black men scored even lower.
Is it still possible that there black geniuses hidden in this number, enough blacks to fill up the average US town? Is there a pony in all this bs?
No.
1. 600 of all students (209 of whom were White women) scored 800 in GRE Verbal
2. 6,109 of all students (510 of whom were Asian men) scored 800 in GRE Quantitative
3. 6,309 of all students (4,955 of whom were White students) scored 800 in GRE Analytical
Would it be fair to say that a “genius” might be one of the above 6,309 students who may have scored 800 on all three portions of this test? Sure. Or you might say that all 6,309 are “geniuses” in their particular area of expertise.
Either way you define “genius”, how many of the above geniuses were blacks? NONE.
Let’s not kid ourselves. According to the world’s BEST standards of measurement, even with all the fudging and fiddling and dumbing down of our students and mind-numbing expenditures, even after REJECTING TENS OF MILLIONS of the most qualified White and Asian students from our once-fine universities, ALL of these tests have proven time and time again, for decades now, that NO American black woman came even CLOSE to being classified as even LITERATE, much less as a “genius”.
If there’s even one black woman who scored higher than all the rest of the blacks who took GRE in all three sections, the real creme de la creme of American blackhood, her quantitative skills are lower than the AVERAGE Asian man, her verbal skills are lower than the AVERAGE White man, and her analytical skills are only slightly higher than your Mexican gardener, hardly a candidate for a Ph.D, an M.D.–nor even gardnerhood.
The math:
One standard deviation = 68.3%, or 15.85% above 1 sd
Two standard deviations = 95.4%, or 2.3% above 2 sd
Three Standard deviations = 99.7%, or 0.15% above 3 sd
Four standard deviations = 99.99366%, or 0.00317% above 4 sd
five standard deviations = 99.99994%, or 0.00004% above 5 sd
GRE scores of black women
Verbal = 388 s/d of 88, 2,617 scored above 478, 380 scored above 566, 25 scored above 654, 1/2 (read: NONE) scored above 742, 0.007 [read: NONE] scored 800
Quantitative = 404 s/d of 104, 2,617 scored above 508, 380 scored above 612, 25 scored above 716, NONE scored 800
Analytical = 421 sd of 109, 2,617 scored above 530, 380 scored above 639, 25 scored above 746, NONE scored 800
gresexrace.gif (31036 bytes)
Population of Kenya = 37,953,840
* Number of Kenyans who score four standard deviations higher than the mean, or 740 on GRE Verbal = 1,203
* Number of Kenyans who score five standard deviations higher than the mean, or 800 on GRE Verbal = 15
Population of Korea = 48,379,392
* Number of Korean men who score higher than 755 on GRE Quantitative, one standard deviation above their mean = 3,834,067
US Population of Whites = 221,920,211
* Number of White American men who score higher than 800 on GRE Analytical, one standard deviation above their mean = 5,104,165
israeliteknight
14 October 2009
The point is that only 25 Black women scored higher than 654 in GRE Verbal, which you estimate is an IQ of 130. Note that Black women score higher than Black men on many of these College Board tests.
And note also that affirmative action encourages people who are not Black to CLAIM they’re Black in order to be admitted under affirmative action. I know a woman who did just that, so it’s not impossible that NONE of these 25 “Black” women were actually Black.
Of the 16,513 Black women who took GRE Verbal in 1997, it might easily be that 1% of them or 165 were not Blacks at all but instead were Whites (or other races), meaning that NONE of the Blacks scored higher than 600, which you estimate to be an IQ of 122. And this would PROVE that Obama’s claim that his IQ is 127 is a LIE.
mariecurie
30 January 2010
I find this interesting because I scored a 780 on the GRE verbal section, and I have had two IQ tests in my life, one which was 147 and one which was 150. Very similar to your prediction!
That being said, I don’t think it means anything about how “smart” I am compared to others, only how consistently well I do on this type of test.
Ryan
15 February 2010
Any sense of what a comparable table would look like for the SAT Verbal (taking into account the youth of the tested of course )?
Ryan
15 February 2010
I’m particularly interested in what iq would correspond to a verbal 800. Just how much higher is the GRE ceiling?
Lover of Wisdom
16 February 2010
The GRE verbal section is a bit harder than the SAT verbal section (that is not true for the quantitative sections—the GRE version is much easier than the SAT version). I suspect that a perfect SAT-V score is at least a 145 IQ, but I don’t know the precise correlations.
Ryan
16 February 2010
Do you think the age of the testee makes irrelevant the difference in difficulty? Or were you accounting for that
Ryan
16 February 2010
http://www.davidsonacademy.unr.edu/Articles.aspx?ArticleID=144&NavID=1_33
Here they seem to treat a 700 verbal score in 10th grade as indicating the same level of verbal ability as a 145 verbal comprehension index score on the wisc. Are there any conclusions we can draw from this?
Lover of Wisdom
17 February 2010
Thanks for sending me that link—it’s interesting. The age of the testee does make a difference. The norming of the SAT, for instance, is done on highschool seniors bound for college. They are adults by norming standards, but those minors taking an adult normed test will have a depressed score. You can see it from their chart. There aren’t any definitive conclusions, because we would need to know what those 10th graders score on the verbal section when they are seniors. But I suspect (on the older SAT-I) that mid to high 700s could be a 145 IQ. The new SAT “reading” section isn’t as hard as the SAT I verbal section (I think they took the analogies and antonyms out, which have the highest “g loading”). The pre 1995 renormed SAT was the hardest. It was virtually an IQ test with a high ceiling.
Hendrik Verwoerd
31 March 2010
Does the author understand that tests which call themselves IQ tests are not better correlated with each other than the GRE, SAT, or LSAT is with any of them?
In other words: these standardized tests are IQ tests and not metaphorically. They also have the advantage of being administered to far more people.
The Stanford-Binet is much more verbal loaded than the WISC, which is much more verbal loaded than the Ravens. Of course all of these tests correlate with each other at .65 or higher.
It is a pity that the US relies so heavily on grades in school admissions. College grades are not well correlated with SAT scores whatever the school or major. The UK and almost every other county except the US and Canada admits based on standardized tests. In the UK the correlation of GCSE scores and g is .81. Furthermore the quality of the college degree in most countries is determined by only a few cummulative exams (much more g loaded than short term grades).
The consequence of this is that the American elite which is today determined by education more than ever before is much “dumber” than their foreign counterparts.
Jamie
29 May 2010
I am black. I scored a 700 on the verbal. According to this I have an IQ of 137. And according to the website posted by GS http://www.megafoundation.org/Ultranet/scores.htm, I have an IQ of 160 or so. I definitely don’t believe my IQ 160.
I don’t know if any of this is correct. However, growing up I was the only black kid in a gifted program that consisted of about 10 kids. So, my IQ is definitely above 130 b/c that is what one had to score in the late 80′s in order to get into that class.
Furthermore, I only scored a 153 on the LSAT. However, I only studied for a total of 3 weeks, and I didn’t take any practice exams. So, maybe I could have done better if I had practiced and prepared better. Which I did for the GRE. I only took 2 practice exams even though a lot of people who score 1500+ take 10+ practice exams. But, I did take at least 2
Maybe I could have done better on the GRE and LSAT if I had taken multiple practice exams like some I have read online. I read on one forum where people who scored 170+ on the LSAT had taken up to 40 practice exams. The minimum I had seen was 6 practice exams. I took none when I decided to take the LSAT. Now, does my LSAT reflect my real IQ or does it reflect my stupidity in not preparing? You be the judge
Some Random Jew
11 October 2010
Took my GRE last week.
Received 720 V which according to you is 139 (SD 15) IQ.
My other tests are an SAT taken before recentering (1400 total, which according to [http://www.sq.4mg.com/IQ-SATchart.htm]) gives me an IQ of 137.7 and also a recent Cattell Culture Fair test, on which I received 139 (but supposedly it was normed decades ago, which would give me an IQ of 136.)
So you’re probably in the ballpark. I would guess 720 GRE-V = 136-139 SD 15 IQ.
israeliteknight
17 October 2010
If you scored that high, then you can tell us EXACTLY how many standard deviations you now claim to score higher than “Israel” eh?
http://pisaweb.acer.edu.au/oecd/oecd_pisa_data.html
Sex,Country,Reading,Mathematics,Science
Boys,Japan,507,561,547
Boys,Korea,519,559,561
Girls,Japan,537,553,554
Girls,Korea,533,532,541
Boys,Ireland,513,510,511
Boys,Netherlands,485,504,502
Boys,Russia,485,504,502
Boys,Hong Kong,485,504,502
Boys,Thailand,485,504,502
Girls,Ireland,542,497,517
Boys,US,490,497,497
Girls,Netherlands,514,493,503
Girls,Russia,514,493,503
Girls,Hong Kong,514,493,503
Girls,Thailand,514,493,503
Girls,US,518,490,502
Boys,ISRAEL,444,442,446
Girls,ISRAEL,459,430,426
Boys,Mexico,411,393,423
Girls,Mexico,432,382,419
Data generated from http://pisaweb.acer.edu.au/oecd/oecd_pisa_data.html
Sex,Country,Reading,Mathematics,Science
Boys,Japan,507,561,547
Boys,Korea,519,559,561
Girls,Japan,537,553,554
Girls,Korea,533,532,541
Boys,Ireland,513,510,511
Boys,Netherlands,485,504,502
Boys,Russia,485,504,502
Boys,Hong Kong,485,504,502
Boys,Thailand,485,504,502
Girls,Ireland,542,497,517
Boys,US,490,497,497
Girls,Netherlands,514,493,503
Girls,Russia,514,493,503
Girls,Hong Kong,514,493,503
Girls,Thailand,514,493,503
Girls,US,518,490,502
Boys,ISRAEL,444,442,446
Girls,ISRAEL,459,430,426
Boys,Mexico,411,393,423
Girls,Mexico,432,382,419
Do you think I just made this up? Why don’t you LOOK at the actual data for a change, rather than sitting around patting each other on the back about how talented Jews are?
Unless you think it’s “talent” to score 54 points lower than us in reading, and 55 points lower than us in math, and 51 points lower than us in science, PISA says you have no clue what you’re talking about.
In case you believe it’s an anomaly that ISRAEL scores so low in PISA, note that they also score very low in TIMSS math, having succeeded in scoring 463, which is 47 points lower than our already low score of 508, which is 90 points lower than Chinese Taipei:
http://timssandpirls.bc.edu/TIMSS2007/idb_ug.html
This indicates that Ashekanazi Jews in ISRAEL may score even lower than American blacks.
> Mathematics Achievement at the 8th Grade
>
> Country Average Scale Score (TIMSSScale Average 500)
>
1. Chinese Taipei 598
2. Korea, Rep. of 597
3. Singapore 593
4. Hong Kong SAR 572
5. Japan 570
6. Hungary 517
7. England 513
8. Russian Federation 512
9. United States 508
10. Lithuania 506
11. Czech Republic 504
12. Slovenia 501
13. Armenia 499
14. Australia 496
15. Sweden 491
16. Malta 488
17. Scotland 487
18. Serbia 486
19. Italy 480
20. Malaysia 474
21. Norway 469
22. Cyprus 465
23. Bulgaria 464
24. ISRAEL 463
25. Ukraine 462
26. Romania 461
27. Bosnia and Herzegovina 456
28. Lebanon 449
29. Thailand 441
30. Turkey 432
31. Jordan 427
32. Tunisia 420
33. Georgia 410
34. Iran, Islamic Rep. of 403
35. Bahrain 398
36. Indonesia 397
37. Syrian Arab Republic 395
38. Egypt 391
39. Algeria 387
40. Colombia 380
41. Oman 372
42. Palestinian Nat’l Auth. 367
43. Botswana 364
44. Kuwait 354
45. El Salvador 340
46. Saudi Arabia 329
47. Ghana 309
48. Qatar 307
49. Morocco 381
>
> Benchmarking Participants
>
1. Massachusetts, US 547
2. Minnesota, US 532
3. Quebec, Canada 528
4. Ontario, Canada 517
5. British Columbia, Canada 509
6. Basque Country, Spain 499
7. Dubai, UAE 461
>
> Science Achievement at the 8th Grade
>
> Country Average Scale Score (TIMSSScale Average 500)
>
1. Singapore 567
2. Chinese Taipei 561
3. Japan 554
4. Korea, Rep. of 553
5. England 542
6. Hungary 539
7. Czech Republic 539
8. Slovenia 538
9. Hong Kong SAR 530
10. Russian Federation 530
11. United States 520
12. Lithuania 519
13. Australia 515
14. Sweden 511
15. Scotland 496
16. Italy 495
17. Armenia 488
18. Norway 487
19. Ukraine 485
20. Jordan 482
21. Malaysia 471
22. Thailand 471
23. Serbia 470
24. Bulgaria 470
25. ISRAEL 468
26. Bahrain 467
27. Bosnia and Herzegovina 466
28. Romania 462
29. Iran, Islamic Rep. of 459
30. Malta 457
31. Turkey 454
32. Syrian Arab Republic 452
33. Cyprus 452
34. Tunisia 445
35. Indonesia 427
36. Oman 423
37. Georgia 421
38. Kuwait 418
39. Colombia 417
40. Lebanon 414
41. Egypt 408
42. Algeria 408
43. Palestinian Nat’l Auth. 404
44. Saudi Arabia 403
45. El Salvador 387
46. Botswana 355
47. Qatar 319
48. Ghana 303
49. Morocco 402
>
> Benchmarking Participants
>
1. Massachusetts, US 556
2. Minnesota, US 539
3. Ontario, Canada 526
4. British Columbia, Canada 526
5. Quebec, Canada 507
6. Basque Country, Spain 498
7. Dubai, UAE 489
Some Random Jew
19 October 2010
“If you scored that high, then you can tell us EXACTLY how many standard deviations you now claim to score higher than “Israel” eh?”
*DeNiro*You talking to me?
Israel = 75% Jewish, 20% Arab.
The 75% Jewish part is Ashkenazi and Sephardic.
The TIMMS report I’m looking at shows the following sample: Hebrew secular 64 (46%), Hebrew Religious 37(26%), Arab Secular 39 (28%.)
So they’re oversampling Arabs by 40% relative to population.
Secondly, where exactly do you get Ashkenazi-Sephardic breakdown from this? Hebrew secular-religious distinction tells us nothing about this.
So you have relatively lower scores when you oversample Arabs and potentially include a large chunk of Sephardic Jews. This won’t shock anyone.
Regardless, from personal experience and the studies I’ve seen:
(all mean IQs) Jewish Ashkenazi USA IQ > Jewish Ashkenazi Israel IQ > Jewish Sephardic Israel IQ > Arab IQ anywhere.
“”This indicates that Ashekanazi Jews in ISRAEL may score even lower than American blacks.”
I think that word “Ashkenazi” may not mean what you think it means.
Some Random Jew
19 October 2010
Hey, you may want to check this out:
http://www-classic.uni-graz.at/pslgcwww/rindermann/publikationen/07EJPall.pdf
Dr. Rindermann places the adjusted all cognitive ability sum of Israel at 96 — on par with the lower European countries like Greece (97), Bulgaria (96) and Portugal (95.)
I suspect Ashkenazi Jews in Israel are no dumber than the average high end European. I’ve seen an average of 103 in some study. If they weren’t smarter than the average US black (mean IQ 85-89) the high tech sector they have would be nigh impossible. Unless you know of some country where there’s a thriving high tech industry (including R&D) and a mean IQ below 90. ‘Cause I can’t think of any at the moment…
Ryan
24 October 2010
Anyone know if the ETS publishes how many perfect verbal GRE scores there are each year?
Lover of Wisdom
24 October 2010
This extended table, which you can find at the front of my blog, has the data you need, though it doesn’t present it as a total. It might still be helpful, however.
Table
kristen
18 November 2010
What about someone like me, who scored a 750 in verbal on a practice test (on a CD rom that came with a GRE study book) but got a 650 in the supposedly “easier” quantitative section? I think using the verbal score skews the numbers in favor of more linguistically gifted folk, such as yours truly. And on the CD rom’s first verbal section, I got a 530 because I didn’t know that [word]: meant you had to choose an antonym (so probably not genius material).
…Oh, who am I kidding, I am TOTALLY a genius. Or I’ll know once I take the real GRE.
Lover of Wisdom
18 November 2010
As I said in the post, it is only valid for measuring verbal ability, or crystalized intelligence, for those native to the English language. A person’s complete intelligence profile will include scores on a battery of tests, and then combine for a total average score. A person’s intellectual strengths and weakness will thus be worked into the final score.
By the way, don’t be fooled by the practice tests (especially if it is Princeton Review). They are notoriously easier than ETS’s actually GRE. So you should over prepare for the real thing if you wish to do well.
israeliteknight
18 November 2010
DWI vs. DWB
Driving While Intoxicated vs. Driving While Black
A German roadside study showed that the drunkest White driver imaginable was 30 TIMES more likely than a sober White driver to have a fatal accident.
http://fathersmanifesto.net/duigerman.htm
A UN survey showed that Black drivers are ONE THOUSAND TIMES more likely to have a fatal accident than the average White driver.
http://fathersmanifesto.net/iqdrivers.htm
http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/road_safety_status/key_data/en/index.html
This makes the AVERAGE Black driver 33 TIMES more dangerous than the DRUNKEST White driver.
israeliteknight
18 November 2010
“don’t be fooled by the practice tests (especially if it is Princeton Review). They are notoriously easier than ETS’s actually GRE. So you should over prepare for the real thing if you wish to do well.”
Well said.
Many educators were touting how they had taken an online IQ test and scored 100 or higher. So I took the test by just randomly guessing at every answer without even seeing what the questions were and scored 105. And that’s the main problem I see with how GRE (and all other standardized tests, including SAT and TIMSS) are scored. A score of 475 in TIMSS physics is actually the score you’d get if you signed your name and got 200 points, answered all the give-away memorization questions, then guessed on all the multiple choice questions without even trying to get close.
iow, this score of 475 is actually intellectual ground zero );
DR
11 December 2010
how do you feel about power plus and the p-tests put out by ets?
Lover of Wisdom
12 December 2010
I’m not familiar with them. Can you describe them?
Taryn
6 January 2011
I just took the GRE yesterday and scored a 640 on the verbal section and a 510 on the quantitative. This is similar to the scores I got before I started college on the SAT and the ACT. My verbal type scores have always been way up compared to anything involving math. I know I am a smart person, but it’s almost entirely devoted to one type of intelligence while I have always struggled with the other. It’s interesting to see how my verbal score could convert to a possible IQ score, but I’m pretty sure if I were judged on math alone people would think I was way behind. It’s frustrating at times, but I suppose I should be thankful for what I am able to do well.
Francis
18 January 2011
I scored an 800 on the verbal GRE test (and much lower on the quant section). I seriously doubt that I have a 150 IQ, but thanks anyway for the ego boost.
I’m pretty slow at mathematical calculation, which shouldn’t be the case for someone with a stratospheric IQ, right?
What is the correlation between a high verbal GRE score and a high quant. score?
Lover of Wisdom
18 January 2011
For a group of test takers, the correlation is moderately good. By the way, a lot of mathematicians are average or even slow when it comes to mathematical calculation or arithmetic. Higher mathematics is so abstract that it has very little to do with actual, concrete calculation and more to do with analyzing properties of mathematical systems (e.g., real analysis). That’s why you can have Ashkenazi Jews with very high verbal ability and poor spatial ability and still excel at mathematics.
C. Wendt
19 January 2011
Lover of Wisdom, I am curious; what, specifically, are the sources behind the figures you offer in this post (in particular, the correlations between verbal and quantitative SAT scores and IQ)? This is meant only as an inquiry stemming from my general curiosity about the subject, and not an attack on the accuracy of your figures.
Lover of Wisdom
19 January 2011
C. Wendt:
You could start with this paper.
C. Wendt
19 January 2011
I was actually familiar with the gist of this research (I hadn’t read the paper itself, but had seen it summarized); it was a part of what inspired me to ask the preceding question, as I am curious about some apparent discrepancies between their findings and those which seem prevalent in the broader field. In particular, Frey and Detterman apparently consider the math/quantitative section of the SAT to be much more important than the verbal section in approximating IQ, to the point at which their equation renders the verbal score virtually irrelevant (as best I can tell, the difference between a verbal score of 800 and a verbal score of 200 only amounts to less than two total IQ points under their system), while most other sources, including this one, cite the verbal section as a more accurate measure of IQ than the quantitative.
Moreover, the Frey/Detterman equation X’IQ = (0.095 * SAT-M) + (0.003 * SAT-V) + 50.241- appears to yield substantially lower general IQ results than do other SAT/IQ conversions I’ve seen, to the point at which an individual who posted perfect scores on both the verbal and quantitative sections of the SAT would only receive a 128.641 IQ estimate. This seems hard to swallow, considering that (to my understanding) around 3% of the populace are supposed to hold IQs at that level or higher, and yet I do not believe that any 3% of the general public could pull a 1600 verbal/quantitative combined SAT score.
Again, I am not profoundly well-studied in this matter (my research has consisted primarily in a smattering of moderately-lengthy sessions of internet-surfing), and so I apologize if I’m misunderstanding one or more sources or making some obviously silly error herein. Anyway, I am curious about the relative accuracy of the verbal and quantitative sections in predicting IQ and about the best system of conversion, and would be appreciative of any further commentary thereupon which you might see fit to offer.
israeliteknight
19 January 2011
The problem I see with trying to discount the high degree of correlation between verbal scores and IQ is that there’s such a high degree of correlation between math scores and verbal scores. Whether measured by state, or by city, or by country, or by individual, those with the highest math scores also have the highest verbal scores and those with the lowest math scores also have the lowest verbal scores.
One thing that is true is that the Pearson coefficient for the correlation between IQ and math scores is significantly higher than that for IQ and verbal scores. This means that math scores are a better way to measure IQ, but not that verbal scores aren’t important.
We should also note that annual incomes track more closely with math scores than with verbal scores. For example, even though Asians have relatively low verbal scores, their signifcantly higher math scores means that their average annual incomes are still high.
israeliteknight
20 January 2011
With regard to the question “I do not believe that any 3% of the general public could pull a 1600 verbal/quantitative combined SAT score”, please note the following from the GRE data:
12% of Asian men score higher than 800 in GRE Quantitative and less than 1% score higher than 800 in GRE Verbal
1% of Asian women score higher than 800 in GRE Quantitative and 0.1% score higher than 800 in GRE Verbal
6% of White men score higher than 800 in GRE Quantitative and 1-2% score higher than 800 in GRE Verbal
2% of White Hispanic men score higher than 800 in GRE Quantitative and none of them have ever scored higher than 800 in GRE Verbal
1% of Mexican men score higher than 800 in GRE Quantitative and none of them have ever scored higher than 800 in GRE Verbal
ditto for American Indian men, Puerto Rican men, and Cuban men
No Black has ever scored higher than 800 on any portion of the GRE
I haven’t done the complete calculation, but on the surface, it appears that you are correct: about 3% of those taking the GRE do score over 800. Today the GRE is not representative of the general public, because afifrmative action caused the least qualified students to be a majority of those now taking GRE [read: the general public probably scores higher on average than those taking GRE].
israeliteknight
20 January 2011
Ashkenazi Jews excel at math? Don’t they constitute about 85% of Israel? And in all the standardized tests, doesn’t Israel score closer to Africa than to America? Professor Lynn generously puts their average IQ at 94, but some other indicators put it as low as 82. The mythical Ashkenazi jew with an IQ of 132 would have to score five standard deviations higher than that. And as the esteemed math members of this forum know, if there are only 6 million Jews in America, then exactly two of them MIGHT score that high IF it’s a perfect Gaussian Distribution.
Lover of Wisdom
20 January 2011
75% of Israel’s total population consists of Jews of any strip. Of those Jews, only half are Ashkenazi, the other half being Sephardic and Mizrahi. The latter groups are basically a combination of Africans, Middle Easterners and everything between. Knowing their lower than average IQs, I’m not surprised that Israel’s average IQ is in that range. By the way, Israel also includes anyone as Ashkenazi that automatically doesn’t fall into the Sephardic category. See the wikipedia sites here and here.
If you don’t think Ashkenazi Jews excel at math, then why are they overrepresented in mathematically heavy disciplines and are overrepresented among Nobel laureates?
israeliteknight
23 January 2011
The Nobel Prize is a huge hoax designed to make it appear that Ashkenazi Jews are intelligent. Giving Obama a “peace” prize ought to be proof enough of that to anyone who thinks otherwise. Only 2% of the Jews in Israel who take these international standardized tests are Sephardic Jews, and the balance are Ashkenazi Jews. Arabs and Christians don’t even take these tests because they’re not even allowed to live in that land, much less attend schools which preach the Talmud, much less participate in these tests. There is no place on the planet where the academic performance, both verbal and mathematical, of Ashkenazi Jews can be so accurately measured as in Israel.
Also, the ONLY person to ever get an Olympic Gold Medal from Israel was an Arab–while little ole’ countries like Norway got more than 352 of them. If they’re THAT intelligent, how could they possibly go this long with not a SINGLE Gold Medal?
israeliteknight
1 February 2011
Sephardic Jews in Israel are treated just as poorly by the Ashkenazi Jews as they treat Muslims or Christians (or even worse, by some reports). Google “Jack Bernstein” on his writings about Sephardic Jews to see first hand what I mean.
Charming Billy
3 March 2011
i gotta 800 on thuh vurbul sekkshun ov thuh gre and if yur rite thin i gotta iq ov mor than 148 an i doant theenk thass rite i aint that smart
procrastinating grad student
18 March 2011
I’m black (okay, half black). I scored 800 on both the verbal and quantitative GRE sections. On the other hand, I’m posting an anonymous comment on an ancient random blog post at 5 in the morning instead of working on my paper that’s due in a few hours, so how well that score correlates with intelligence in my case is an open question…
Jimbo
21 March 2011
I keep seeing references on here to various groups “scoring higher than 800″ on some section of the GRE. 800 is the top score you can get – there is no scoring “higher”.
FWIW, I scored 800V, 770Q, 770A. So you can all suck it.
Dan Bablinskas
9 April 2011
For Harvard graduate programs, the average GRE verbal score is only 550-570. I’d suspect our Ivy League schools to have higher average IQ’s than ~115, but according to this chart, that’s likely the case.
Jacob Israel
15 April 2011
It’s hard to imagine just how dumbed down our Ivy League Schools are now, after years of affirmative action. But if their verbal GRE scores are only 550-570, this might be proof that affirmativ action is alive and well there. We the people of California (and NO politician, bureaucrat, educator, or legislator) passed Proposition 209 to outlaw affirmative action here, but STILL we see the following from our “educators”:
<<>>
If this is still going on here, you can bet it’s still going on there, and that this is the reason for the low average test scores at Harvard.
koloff
21 April 2011
Jacobiteknight, jacobite, israeliteknight, batman… whoever he is, seems very bitter. Perhaps he’s not a knight, but a pawn of propaganda afterall. I’m black, and I”m a GENIUS! Scores/ memberships to prove it: Mensa (130+ iq) AND The International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (~150+iq), Miller Anologies 83 (raw), Raven’s Advanced Progressive Matrices 34 out of 36, CTMM 99.997+%(extrapolated/off the scale), W87/ Harding (BC) Skyscraper 99.9+%, and the Wonderlic 49 out of 50. With the exception of the Wonderlic and the Mensa admissions test, all others were taken PRIOR to the advent of home-internet. ALL, including Wonderlic and Mensa admissions were taken WITHOUT me having prior knowledge of the test being taken until i arrived @ such testing sites. I didn’t have the “luxury” of practicing with test booklets or CD-ROM. The internet has bastardized the legitimacy of nearly all standardized tests– i digressed. These were/are(?) authentic “intelligence” tests, not on-line PUBLISHED achievement tests. Oh yeah, most were taken as a teenager, so they were still far too advanced for coaching. There’s hardly an intellectual accomplishment comparable to “sitting” for an IQ test, whose questions/responses are novel, and stepping through the portal of Genius with only a pencil and grey matter… no Kaplan, Baron’s, thousand dollar review courses, etc.
koloff
21 April 2011
Getting to the jist of this post, gre scores and IQ scores aren’t convertible. The “Philosophical Enquiry” [for short] to which I belong, no longer accepts gre/sat/act scores– most high-iq societies don’t. When they[ISPE] did, they used a 725 “average of scores” as a cutoff. The iq required for admission is ~150(depending on test/sd), which corresponds to gre-verbal 800. When it comes to psychometrics, I trust those individuals who have scored/soared high without the benefit of practice… not someone spouting statistics from an open book spread-eagle in front of them. How many times did you lick your thumb while turning those pages? I like statistics too though! I also enjoy Number theory, Set theory, Combinatorics, Linguistics, Cryptography(RSA), Physics (Nuclear/Particle), Astronomy, Geography, and JEOPARDY! lol
Derp
21 April 2011
Guys, this idea will totally blow you away:
If you score high on the verbal, quantitative or written sections of the GRE then it means you’re good at scoring on standardized tests.
The rest is just a marketing campaign to justify an 160$ test fee, or a 22$ score submission fee.
Wouldn’t be suprised if the author of this blog was a paid schill of the industry.
koloff
25 April 2011
A test which allows a person to develop “algorithms & heuristics” ( via study guides, internet publication, etc.) BEFORE taking the test does not measure IQ. True IQ tests require the individual to develop those strategies WHILE taking the test, or not at all… certainly not before. The MAT is the closest assessment akin to verbal IQ at the u’graduate or graduate level. Either you’re familiar with the vocabulary, or you aren’t. The “baseline” questions at the beginning are warm-ups, but the latter half separates the “live” from the “jive”. It’s like studying for JEOPARDY; a task virtually impossible unless you’re willing to memorize an almanac and a dictionary. MAT conversions to GRE & IQ grossly underestimated; on average, a 20 yr old with a MAT- 66 mid score much higher than the predicted 600 GRE-V/ 130 IQ. Likewise, GRE scores are vastly overestimated in relation to MAT scores. However, this assertion does come with a disclaimer– the MAT is much more age sensitive, since it mostly measures accumulated knowledge over a lifespan. Consequently, [with the MAT] you would expect an individual to score progressively higher with age.
israeliteknight
26 April 2011
Koloff, if you are black, and if you do have such a high IQ, then you need to call the ETS and let them know, because according to them, the HIGHEST scoring blacks in the entire WORLD scored LOWER than 650 on ALL parts of the GRE.
But besides that, your “analysis” above discredits any possibility that you have a “high IQ”, or even can reason.
Why?
You don’t seem to even grasp the first thing about averages, which is what this comparison is all about. There is no need to “study” for the GRE BECAUSE it’s intended to, and in fact does, measure what a student’s capabilities are after four years of college, and does an amazing job of eliminating affirmative action students (the chaff) from the wheat.
israeliteknight
26 April 2011
Lover of Wisdom makes some excellent points about how IQ is actually measured and how verbal scores are not the final authority. I’ve done some comparisons between verbal scores, and math, quantitative, and analytical skills, and discovered an amazingly high correlation.
Iow, those with high GRE verbal scores also have high GRE quantitative and analytical scores, ON AVERAGE. The exceptions to the rule? They’re essentially outliers.
israeliteknight
26 April 2011
Did you know that Einstein flunked algebra? Did you know that in the midst of our race to achieve nuclear superiority our experts never once called on Einstein for advice? Did you know that GPS was designed WITHOUT consideration for “his” (it was stolen form WHITE guys) “theory” of relativity and works just perfectly?
israeliteknight
26 April 2011
Phillippe Rushton did some excellent comparisons between brain size and IQ scores. He was puzzled about some of the data points which didn’t correlate. So I took his own brain size data and correlated it with GRE quantitative scores by race and sex, and got a Pearson Coefficient of 0.89. He seemed surprised about that, and it wasn’t t until much later that I realized that the problem is that IQ tests in The US have been so dumbed down and politicized that they are now meaningless (at least relative to what GRE actually measures).
The major outlier on the GRE comparison is Black males– they scored much lower than their brain size indicates they should. Removing that data point makes the data almost linear.
israeliteknight
26 April 2011
A point about Gaussian Distribution: none of these tests are designed to measure ability at levels BELOW scores people would get if they just signed their name (200 points) and guessed on the rest (another possible 270 points, as is the case with TIMSS Physics). If a group scores 370 on such a test, the odds are real small (to say the least) that they follow a typical Gaussian Distribution. And that means that GRE scores for Black women who score an average of 390 or lower are too low to make any comparisons within that group.
israeliteknight
26 April 2011
Jumbo, the point about scoring higher than 800 was made in reference to the large percentage of Asian men who DO score 800. Since the test was designed for “American” students who don’t have that “problem”‘, the test would have to be redesigned or recentered for Asian men to see just how much higher than OUR 800 they would score );
israeliteknight
26 April 2011
To be specific about Asian men: about five thousand of them take the GRE each year. And of those, 650 of them score 800, and you can see from the Gaussian Distribution that if the test did not have this 800 limit, many of them would score much higher than 800.
Conversely, about 75,000 White men take this test and only about 1,500 of them would score higher than 800 if it were possible.
And of the 139,000 White women who take this test each year, about 188 of them would score higher than 800 if it were possible.
However, of the 16,500 black women who take this test (verbal GRE of 388 with an SD of 88), IF they follow a Gaussian Distribution (which they most surely don’t), they would have to score 5 standard deviations higher than the mean to score 800.
Theoretically, it’s possible that 0.0003% of them would score this high. But 0.0003% of 16,500 Black women = 0.00495 of them–which would be a VERY small black woman, one two hundredth of one to be exact );
What about the other 19 million black women in the US? IF they were ALL just as sharp as the 16,500 Black women who take the GRE (an impossibility), and IF they actually DO follow a Gaussian Distribution (which this test really can’t measure at that low level), THEN 57 of these 19 million black women MIGHT score 800 or (or higher).
Hispanics aren’t in much better shape. For example, of the 1,700 Puerto Rican women who take GRE (Verbal of 408 with an SD of 99), to score 800, they’d have to score 4 standard deviations than their mean, where only at most 0.00317% do.
But 0.00317% times 1,700 Puerto Rican women = 0.05389, which also is a very small Puerto Rican );
israeliteknight
26 April 2011
There are four reasons I don’t believe the following:
“I suspect Ashkenazi Jews in Israel are no dumber than the average high end European. I’ve seen an average of 103 in some study. If they weren’t smarter than the average US black (mean IQ 85-89) the high tech sector they have would be nigh impossible. Unless you know of some country where there’s a thriving high tech industry (including R&D) and a mean IQ below 90. ‘Cause I can’t think of any at the moment…”
1) Professor Lynn VERY GENEROUSLY puts Israel’s IQ at 94.
2) A correlation of his IQ scores with Israel’s EIGHTH GRADE TIMSS math score puts Israel’s IQ at 92.
3) As noted above, the close proximity of Israel’s 468 in TIMSS science with Bahrain’s 467, a country with an average IQ of 83, and with Iran at 459, a country with an average IQ of 84, puts this REAL close to the supposed average IQ of American blacks of 85.
4) Even more important than all of this, as noted above, is the simple fact that Israel’s miserable driving record, as evidenced by the World Health Organization (1 death per 418 vehicles) is MUCH closer to Africa than to Europe. Ghana, with an average IQ of 71, is actually SAFER than Israel, at one death per 502 vehicles. It’s on par with Afghanistan at one death per 411 vehicles and an IQ of 74, and with Guinea-Bisau at 1 death per 381 vehicles and an IQ of 63.
NONE of the industrialized nations come even CLOSE to this kind of road carnage, with drivers in Switzerland being one thirty fifth as likely to kill someone on their highways, in Japan one thirty third as likely, in Germany one twenty seventh, in the US one fourteenth, in Italy one eighteenth as likely, as drivers in Israel.
Do I really think it’s at all possible that the AVERAGE IQ of all Jews throughout the world is this low–amongst Ghana and Guinea? Yes, I do. I am in fact certain of it, because I understand how (and why) Jews took control of all the American IQ tests and perverted them to protect themselves.
israeliteknight
27 April 2011
“If you score high on the verbal, quantitative or written sections of the GRE then it means you’re good at scoring on standardized tests. The rest is just a marketing campaign to justify an 160$ test fee, or a 22$ score submission fee.”
This has little to do with marketing and much to do about how MILLIONS of people around the world are measured by both employers and educators to cut their losses, and it does a very good job of it. Hiring a graudate with a high GRE score doesn’t guarantee that he will succeed, but hiring one with a low score DOES guarantee he will fail. High school and college grades have been so politicized and distorted that these standardized test scores are the only way to cut through the chaff.
koloff
28 April 2011
I never said that I took the gre; don”t have results to report on that:( True… you don”t HAVE TO study for gre(s) or any other standardized test, but it certainly helps if you do. People ON AVERAGE do better the “second time around” on a test, even if the test doesn’t contain the exact same questions. Same version, or practice tests [versions], suffice just the same. Take a gre practice test ‘cold”, then brush up on triangles, probability, [word] problem solving, and notice the difference… unless you ace it the first time. Here’s one right down your alley, as it garishly highlights your theory of “black inferiority”: how many NFL athletes score dramatically higher AFTER taking the wonderlic the 2nd time. The difference is ssssssso great that many attempt to hide the first score. High-Iq societies don’t even accept sat/act/gre scores anymore; re-centering proves the conclusion. The Flynn affect is not the result of increased intellect, rather the result of study & prep. High-Iq societies don’t race norm, and they don’t publish tests for you to study… I LOVE THAT! No affirmative action! I’M LEGIT. Imagine that:-) Smiley-face not drawn to scale of course; I’m black, so yall know my nose is bigger than that. LMAO!
israeliteknight
28 April 2011
kolof, nothing you’ve ever written is credible, and you now make matters worse by making claims which are the exact opposite of many easily available studies and surveys. You complain about marketing people but then accept what they say about improving scores by “studying” for a standardized test, rather than doing your own research.
Half-breed blacks in the USA perform lower in international tests than pure blacks in Africa. If you don’t believe it , google “IAEP math” for Mozambique and see for yourself.
israeliteknight
28 April 2011
After all, the Kenyan in the WH whose from a country with an average IQ of 72 CLAIMS to have an IQ of 122.
His claim of having an IQ five standard deviations higher than his countrymen is no more credible than your claim.
koloff
29 April 2011
I’m not complaining about the marketing schemes of test-prep publishers, I’m just saying that they do what they’re designed to do… work! I’ve read the Bell Curve and other statistical research on intelligence. In fact I’ve been a participant in a study (university) on profound giftedness. It may seem paradoxical, but a fundamental caveat of computational analysis involves the premise: ” correlation is not synonymous with causation”. There’s strong correlation between having a torso[sic] and scoring high on the gre! That doesn’t mean that having a torso is the root cause of such high achievement, because other variables fall into the fray. You can draw a line(ar) regression from “anywhere” to “anywhere”, and make an infinite number of (un0related points connect. Novice statisticians can’t avoid the pitfalls of over-quantifying experimental research. QUALITATIVE reasoning is embedded as a system of checks/balances for just that reason. I [myself] have the habit of number-crunching everything in sight; I automaticallymanipulate (multiply, divide, square, cube, etc.) every number that I see. I’m currently working on a crypto-linguistic cypher[original], whereby I even transform letters into numbers… so I feel your pain. When I feel myself being too Mathematical I immerse myself in Humanities, as a defense mechanism to logical fallacies.
koloff
29 April 2011
Many of these posts remind me of “Good Will Hunting”, where the guy is randomly regurgitating Smithian(?)/Keynesian economics for the sole purpose of dazzling an audience. Will however retorts with page numbers from which the guy is quoting. Classic! I can quote Disquisitiones Arithmeticae like Britsh lit majors quote Shakespeare, I’ve memorized “PI” to 500 places, and read the aforementioned numerical data as a teenager. What problem has this solved? At some point, extreme iq/genius become divergent of academia… it [genius]makes its own bones. What scientific enquiry or creative insight can be gained by simply echoing scholastic(?) publications. Lower animal species have the ability to mimic! This erroneous mode of operation serves only to stifle and bottle-neck original ideas. Einstein tread his own path, blazed his own trail, stood upon his own shoulders. He tipped over the notion of classical physics commandered by Newton (et.al.) and presented his own ideas. Now revisionist historians are attempting to raize his accomplishments, but that’s the chance visionaries take when stepping out on their own. And you can quote me on that:0
koloff
29 April 2011
Oh yeah, I am doing my own research! I’m currently writing a book on geo-political theory, with a mathematical/statistical model embedded at the end. Actually, the model is the “sine que non” of the whole endeavor! It is imperative [to myself] I DON’T rely on the strengthof OTHERS’ arguments, data, theories, etc when writing this book. Straight from the hip. So i guess the notion of involving research is an oxymoron( no pun), since I’m “drawing” it free-hand… without tracing/plagiarizing over someone else’s hypothesis. It ain’t half bad. You should try it sometime.
israeliteknight
29 April 2011
koloff, you better work on your grammar and spelling first. Even with all these electronic grammar and spell checkers available to you online, you still seem to have a hard time forming a complete sentence and spelling words correctly. What’s with the little “i”?
You need to register yourself with the ETS. Of the MILLIONS of blacks they have administered the GRE and the SAT to, they have NEVER discovered even one single genius black like you.
That is, IF you are telling us the truth );
koloff
29 April 2011
It’s possible to misspell a few, especially when you’re not copying someone else’s publications verbatim. Didn’t know this was graded, but I suggest that you employ your own “spellcheck” advice! Resorting to “ad hominem” attacks b/c you were rejected by the Ivies is low-brow indeed. You still have the West Coast Ivies… Berkeley, Palo Alto, Westwood. Allow your brain to mature for a score or two (or twenty), and re-apply:) I happen to be one of those outliers/ exceptions to the rule which YOU brought up. Is it that hard for you to digest? I’ll register with ETS when you register with KKK… or is it already too late?
israeliteknight
30 April 2011
As if though we needed any more proof that your claim to be a black outlier is desperate at best, now you invite us to join the KKK?
Such advice is about the most productive thing we’ve ever gotten out of the entire 36 million blacks in the country–and it’s less than worthless. And that’s why American blacks are a $1.2 TRILLION DOLLAR black hole for us, for which we have gotten ZERO return on the investment.
koloff
30 April 2011
Now, now israelite. I wasn’t suggesting that everyone posting join the KKK, only you b/c of your racially-motivated, agenda-driven soapbox. This was supposedly about gre/iq correlation, and all you’ve managed is to “copy & paste” research conducted by others. “Black people” this, “black women” that, “black drivers” (lol!) that? “Professor X” said this, “Professor Y” stated such, “Professor Z” adds that… You’re obviously an amputee w/ prosthetics, b/c you certainly don’t have legs of your own to stand on. Mentioning of the KKK stems from universal knowledge of an “open admissions” policy for peeps like you. You’re not Mensa level, and DEFINITELY not ISPE level! That would require a little mental creativity. You could’ve just given page #s to the book, saving those hands for your more pleasurable pasttime. Grit your teeth and think of the Queen Mum, you bugger. Koloff signing off for good… riddance. This blog is old and for the birds… and a bigot:) He who laughs last laughs best. LMAO!
Original JB
3 May 2011
“1) Professor Lynn VERY GENEROUSLY puts Israel’s IQ at 94.”
OK, so you basically ignored the entirety of my analysis, the distinction between Ashkenazi Jewish Israelis, Sephardic Jewish Israelis and Arab Israelis and plowed on. One must admire your dogged persistence if not your intellectual honesty.
“2) A correlation of his IQ scores with Israel’s EIGHTH GRADE TIMSS math score puts Israel’s IQ at 92.”
3) As noted above, the close proximity of Israel’s 468 in TIMSS science with Bahrain’s 467, a country with an average IQ of 83, and with Iran at 459, a country with an average IQ of 84, puts this REAL close to the supposed average IQ of American blacks of 85.”
The data I have from Heiner Rinderman’s “The g-factor of International Cognitive Ability…” (2007) shows Israeli TIMMS at 511 – about the same as Spain (505). Pretty much what I expected, given AGAIN, their high-tech sector, which Bahrain obviously does not have.
Common sense should dictate that you are spewing nonsense, yet common sense is obviously not something you possess.
[some drivel about driving deaths that's supposed to relate to IQ deleted]
“Do I really think it’s at all possible that the AVERAGE IQ of all Jews throughout the world is this low–amongst Ghana and Guinea? Yes, I do. I am in fact certain of it, because I understand how (and why) Jews took control of all the American IQ tests and perverted them to protect themselves.”
You are genuinely disturbed.
4) Even more important than all of this, as noted above, is the simple fact that Israel’s miserable driving record, as evidenced by the World Health Organization (1 death per 418 vehicles) is MUCH closer to Africa than to Europe. Ghana, with an average IQ of 71, is actually SAFER than Israel, at one death per 502 vehicles. It’s on par with Afghanistan at one death per 411 vehicles and an IQ of 74, and with Guinea-Bisau at 1 death per 381 vehicles and an IQ of 63.
B
5 May 2011
Wow. This is all quite entertaining.
Sometimes i use a lower case i; read between the lines. What is the point? Perhaps it is related to the drive, the innate need, for originality and creativity, as opposed to… rigid coloring between the lines.
Using GRE verbal only is laughable. Plenty of educated peeps with astute vocabularies possess nary a critical thinking skill. Some liberal arts majors come to mind. On the flip side, plenty of educated folks with moderate mathematical skills possess nary a critical thinking skill nor any vocabulicious ability. Some engineering majors come to mind.
Are we measuring chips on shoulders, education, or intelligence? Preparation is a MAJOR factor and you fail to recognize that those of us without that chip… In other words, have you considered the people with IQ’s high enough to not give a rat’s ass about 100 points and do not prepare because it is a lame formality?
And the computer version…what a joke!
My GRE: 800A/540V
My IQ: 140ish
I suppose I could spend a couple of years reading british literature, doing crossword puzzles, and mentally masturbating until I scored 800/800, but would I be any more intelligent? In fact, I argue, I’d probably be a little dumber from this mundane experience.
Lastly, nearly everyone who is highly proficient with mathematics performs rudimentary calculations with ease and rapidity. Don’t fool yourself.
israeliteknight
7 May 2011
JB, I know and have dealt directly with all the top Israeli physicists, engineers, and computer experts and can tell you from direct observation and experience that NONE of them understood the first thing about math and science. I KNOW that they don’t even know algebra, much less calculus, because I have tested them and was shocked at the discovery. This data I posted is simply a way for me to to an objective analysis of the problem. IF they were so smart, they would have at least been able to do some simple programming, but in three years, I never got a single line of code that worked, and a major US corporation went bankrupt because they relied on these “intelligent” Israelis to provide it. Note also that the smartest Jew in the world, Einstein, not only flunked algebra, but he applied to numerous universities and never passed a single simple admissions test.
There is no difference in IQ between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews. And most REAL data I have seen indicates that Arabs are MUCH more intelligent than any race of Jews. If Arabs had any influence in the test scores of Israel, they would have RAISED the average, not lowered it.
Incidentally, since you like to delete the data which shows an almost linear correlation between IQ and motor vehicle fatality rates, let me drop another one on you: there is also a very close relationship between the amount of alcohol consumed per capita and IQ.
Wouldn’t you like to see it?
israeliteknight
7 May 2011
“The data I have from Heiner Rinderman’s ‘The g-factor of International Cognitive Ability…’ (2007) shows Israeli TIMMS at 511 – about the same as Spain (505). Pretty much what I expected, given AGAIN, their high-tech sector, which Bahrain obviously does not have”.
Take a peek at Exhibit 1.3 on the following pdf.:
http://timss.bc.edu/TIMSS2007/PDF/T07_M_IR_Chapter2.pdf
In 2007 in TIMSS math, Massachusetts’ TIMSS math score increased from prior tests by 34 points to 547, while Israel’s score actually DECREASED by that much, to only 463.
What do you think the problem is?
Are they unable to handle the algebra? Or even addition and subtraction?
Note that a score of 470 is what a student would get if they just signed their name (200 points), answered the give-away questions (another 100 points), and simply guessed at all the multiple choice questions (another 170 points).
Israel now scores LOWER than if they’d just guessed on the test. How is that POSSIBLE?
israeliteknight
7 May 2011
Also look at Exhibit 2.2 on that above URL to see where the TOP Israeli students score. Only 4% of Israel’s 8th graders score above the Advanced Benchmark of 625, compared to 45% of Chinese Taipei’s 8th graders, 40% of Korean and Singapore’s, 31% of Hong Kong’s, 26% of Japan’s, and 10% of Hungary’s. Not only is the AVERAGE score of Israel lower than Malta and Serbia and Turkey, but it’s TOP students constitute an exceptionally small percentage of the population.
israeliteknight
7 May 2011
See also Exhibit 2.18 at the following url regarding objective evidence of Israel’s capabilities as scientists:
http://timss.bc.edu/TIMSS2007/PDF/T07_S_IR_Chapter2.pdf
This is kinda a basic question, yet only 10% of Israeli 8th graders got this right, compared to an international average of 23%.
Israel is in the range of Ghana, Botswana, Colombia, Armenia, and Lebanon. 20% of the students in Jordan, Kuwait, and Turkey, got it right. 40% of Iranian, Serbian, Russian, and Italian students got it right, as did 71% of Japan, 61% of Singapore, 52% of Korea, and about half the students in Hungary, England, Malaysia, Romania, and the Czech Republic.
Charming Billy
17 June 2011
No, really I did score 800 on the Verbal GRE. I really don’t think I’m remarkably intelligent. Just smart enough to do graduate work in a liberal arts or social science field (which I did after I took the GRE.) I couldn’t even make it through College Algebra. So how could I have an IQ of more than 148?
Rebuttal
18 June 2011
Israeliteknight, have you considered that the scores of African Americans on the GRE may not be normally distributed and be positively skewed? If so using standard deviations to calculate the high end of scores would not give anywhere close to accurate results . By the way the GRE is a computer based test that asks you questions based on whether or not you answered the previous question correctly, to find a range where you can answer most questions correctly so random guessing on all questions will not get you so many points. In fact a 400 on the verbal section is higher than 35% of all test takers. Oh by the way, I am 100% descended from African slaves and I made a 750 on the quantitative section.
israeliteknight
3 July 2011
If the Gaussian Distribution is skewed at all, it’s skewed in the opposite direction (and it might very well be that). But then again, scores that low aren’t measuring very much, so a Gaussian Distribution would be the most optimistic guess. Here’s an update to the above post to explain why:
Ain’t No Black Geniuses
http://fathersmanifesto.net/gre.htm
16,513 of the creme de la creme of American black women, after a multi-TRILLION dollar “investment” in educating blacks, took the Graduate Record Exam and proved once and for all that:
1.Blacks are patently, inheritably uneducable.
2.The multi-trillion dollar investment in their education was a COMPLETE waste.
3.Rather than improving education for anyone, it destroyed educational opportunities for everyone, but particularly Whites.
4.Rather than improving lives of blacks, it contributed to the almost complete destruction of black families.
I know, I know–a standardized verbal and quantitative test is not an iq test. I know that you get 200 points just for signing your name, so the test is already skewed right off the bat. I know that there are many noise level questions which even kindergartners can answer, which adds another 100 points. I know that many of the questions are multiple choice which means that a person who knows utterly nothing about the subject could get as many as 150 points just by guessing. So I DO recognize that a score of 450 is what a person who knows how to take tests, but knows NOTHING about the subject of the test, might “achieve”.
But black women scored lower than this on GRE Verbal, at 404. And black women scored lower than this on GRE Analytical, at 421. And black women scored MUCH lower than this on GRE quantitative, at 388.
AH, but, you say, there are SOME black geniuses. After all, George Washington Carver only a century ago got four patents for peanutbutter, and look at Congolese Rice and Colon Piles and Obama. They’re geniuses.
Maybe so. Maybe they didn’t take GRE. Maybe black geniuses are so smart they manage to get into graduate school without even bothering with the Graduate Record Exam [or affirmative action mandated they not be required to take it] just like affirmative action permitted them to be admitted to undergraduate schools as MILLIONS of much more qualified White and Asian students were DENIED admission.
The creme de la creme of of blackhood, 16,513 black women, did so well in undergraduate school that they were permitted to take the GRE.
But NOT A ONE of them scored 800 on EITHER of these three parts of the GRE!
Does this make them geniuses? Not exactly. Only 25 scored higher than 654 in GRE Verbal, only 23 scored higher than 716 in GRE Quantitative and only 27 of them scored higher than 746 on GRE Analytical.
With NONE of them scoring 800 on ANY of these three portions of the test, NONE of these 16,513 black women could possibly be considered to be geniuses, could they?
So the crowning achievement of our multi-trillion dollar experiment to educate blacks, of the creme de la creme of 16,513 black women, less than 250 of them scored as high as the AVERGE Asian man on GRE Quantitative at 638, less than 500 of them scored as high as the AVERAGE White man on GRE Verbal at 512, and 84% of them scored LOWER than the AVERAGE Mexican male in GRE Analytical at 514.
Is it still possible that there black geniuses hidden in this number, enough blacks to fill up the average US town? Is there a pony in all this bs?
No.
1.600 of all students (209 of whom were White women) scored 800 in GRE Verbal
2.6,109 of all students (510 of whom were Asian men) scored 800 in GRE Quantitative
3.6,309 of all students (4,955 of whom were White students) scored 800 in GRE Analytical
Would it be fair to say that a “genius” might be one of the above 6,309 students who may have scored 800 on all three portions of this test? Sure. Or you might say that all 6,309 are “geniuses” in their particular area of expertise.
Either way you define it, how many of the above geniuses were blacks? NONE.
Let’s not kid ourselves. According to the world’s BEST standards of measurement, even with all the fudging and fiddling and dumbing down of our students and mind-numbing expenditures, even after REJECTING MILLIONS of the most qualified White and Asian students from our once-fine universities, ALL of these tests have proven time and time again, for decades now, that NO American black woman came even CLOSE to being classified as even LITERATE, much less as a “genius”.
If there’s even one black woman who scored higher than all the rest of the blacks who took GRE in all three sections, the real creme de la creme of American blackhood, her quantitative skills are lower than the AVERAGE Asian man, her verbal skills are lower than the AVERAGE White man, and her analytical skills are only slightly higher than your Mexican gardener, hardly a candidate for a Ph.D, an M.D.–nor even gardnerhood.
This makes the optimistic presumption that black scores follow a regular Gaussian Distribution. It accepts carte blanche, without question, the relatively large standard deviation for blacks reported by the College Board. It ignores that some state laws require a person to be counted as black if 1/64th of their genealogy is black. It doesn’t compensate for the number of blacks admitted through the now illegal affirmative action programs which permitted Whites to be admitted because they posed as blacks. It doesn’t consider the academic theory that the reason American blacks have higher IQs than African blacks is their higher proportion of Caucasoid genes, perhaps as much as 25%. If this theory is correct, then the 25 who scored higher than 654 in GRE Verbal, the 23 who scored higher than 716 in GRE Quantitative, and the 27 who scored higher than 746 on GRE Analytical, would not be black at all according to other blacks because they would be mostly Caucasoid.
israeliteknight
3 July 2011
In 2003, 3 African nations, Ghana, South Africa, and Botswana, participated in TIMSS physics. The average math score for the 5,150 students in Botswana who took the test was 377, seven of whom scored over 482, and none of whom scored over 517. The average score for the 8,952 students in South Africa who took the test was 244, thirteen of whom scored over 447, and none of whom scored over 514. So also in Ghana, where the average score for their 5,100 students was 261, seven of whom scored over 410, and none of whom scored over 517.
Conversely, the average score for the 6,018 students in Singapore was 610, eight of whom scored lower than 490, and none of whom scored lower than 450. At best we can say that eight students in Singapore MAY have scored lower than SEVERAL of the thirteen highest scoring students in South Africa and SEVERAL of the seven highest scoring students in Ghana. No student in Singapore scored 4 standard deviations higher than their mean, or 770, much less 5 standard deviations higher, at 810.
minus 5sd minus 4sd minus 3sd minus 2sd minus 1sd Median plus 1sd plus 2sd plus 3sd plus 4sd plus 5sd
2007 TIMSS Math Score http://timss.bc.edu/timss2007/intl_reports.html
also here
US 0.00267 0.2825 12.5 202.7 1,414 4,456 1,414 202.7 12 0.283 0.0027 8,912
297 336 375 414 453 492 531 570 609 648 687 78
492
Hong Kong 0.00149 0.1576 7.0 113.1 789 2,486 789 113.1 7 0.158 0.0015 4,972
414 448 482 516 550 584 618 652 686 720 754 68
584
Russia 0.00140 0.1479 6.5 106.2 740 2,334 740 106.2 7 0.148 0.0014 4,667
312 351 390 429 468 507 546 585 624 663 702 78
507
Botswana 0.00155 0.1633 7.2 117.2 817 2,575 817 117.2 7 0.163 0.0015 5,150
202 237 272 307 342 377 412 447 482 517 552 70
377
Ghana 0.00153 0.1617 7.1 116.0 809 2,550 809 116.0 7 0.162 0.0015 5,100
14 63 113 162 212 261 311 360 410 459 509 99
261
Singapore 0.00181 0.1908 8.4 136.9 955 3,009 955 136.9 8 0.191 0.0018 6,018
410 450 490 530 570 610 650 690 730 770 810 80
610
So needless to say, no student in Botswana, South Africa, nor Ghana ever scored four standard deviations higher, or 549, 514, or 489, respectively, either, much less five standard deviations higher, or 593, 581, or 551 respectively. Such scores are in the range of the average for Taipei and Korea, whose IQs are in the range of 105 IQ points. It simply boggles the imagination for us to be expected to believe that Obama was the ONE Kenyan in the entire world who scored not just one but TWO standard deviations higher than a place where NO student from Ghana, Botswana, or South Africa has ever ventured. To claim that his IQ is 132 IQ points, yet another three standard deviations higher than the impossible, is the height of absurdity. It would make Obama more valuable as a Wringly Brothers’ Circus freak than a six legged elephant. Yet that’s exactly the claim that his presidential campaign made and you should be embarrassed to the hilt to see so many of your fellow countrymen fall for this circus act.
The average IQ of Kenya is 71 IQ points, the same as for Ghana, and 1 point lower than both Botswana and South Africa, at 72 IQ points. Out of 38 million Kenyans, do you know how many score more than 5 standard deviations higher than that? Only 11 do, at an IQ of only 96 IQ points, four standard deviations higher than their mean, and NONE have an IQ higher than 101 IQ points, five standard deviations higher than the mean. Obama’s not even a Kenyan. He’s a mixed breed and most mixed breeds of most species are of lower quality and intelligence than the pure breeds (otherwise why don’t mules race in horse races)?
California voters consider affirmative action to be CHEATING, which is why we outlawed it with Proposition 209 which actually amended the state constitution for the express purpose of KILLING it. Obama is clearly left over from those days.
Why not simply require him to take the normal IQ test which any dog catcher in the country has to take in order to qualify for his job?
You can bet that this would settle the matter once and for all.
You can see from the bottom ends of the Gaussian curves (bell curves) for all these scores that there is NO overlap between the lowest scoring student in Singapore or Hong Kong, and the highest scoring student in Botswana and Ghana. Not even the US, who scored extremely low for an industrialized nation, had much of an overlap with Ghana (30 students) and Botswana (400 students). Conversely, the top end of our curve is just about on par with Russia, but more than a standard deviation lower than Singapore’s (and almost a standard deviation lower than Hong Kong).
Correction, Tues. Dec. 23, 2008: 7% of the population of Botswana is Whites who score similar to their brethren back in England at 545, meaning that the 93% who’re blacks scored 358. Only seven black students from Botswana scored over 456 and none of them scored over 514. Therefore, none of the lowest scoring eight students in Singapore who scored lower than 462 are likely to have scored lower than the seven top scoring black students from Botswana, meaning there was no overlap of test scores between Singapore and Botswana.
And THAT means that Obama LIED when he said his IQ was 132. Many things he said of questionable veracity might be considered just matters of opinion, but THIS is a PROVABLE lie. Even if all of his other questionable claims are 100% true, that does not absolve him of this KNOWN LIE. Why LIE about this when it’s so easy to PROVE to be a lie? He was too busy lying to stop and figure out when to stop lying? He got away with so many other lies that what could possibly be wrong with one more white lie? He thought the American public was so badly dumbed down that we’d never catch him in yet one more lie? He did it just to thumb his huge Negroid nose at us honkies?
israeliteknight
3 July 2011
“No, really I did score 800 on the Verbal GRE. I really don’t think I’m remarkably intelligent. Just smart enough to do graduate work in a liberal arts or social science field (which I did after I took the GRE.) I couldn’t even make it through College Algebra. So how could I have an IQ of more than 148?”
When viewed by sex, or race, or profession, or major, there’s a very close correlation between GRE Verbal scores and GRE Quantitative scores. What that means is that it’s mostly those wiht high GRE Quantitative scores who have high GRE Verbal scores, and vice versa. But it’s not linear, which means there are exceptions.
It’s hard to imagine how and why this happens. And it’s also hard to imagine how useful it would be to have good verbal skills and bad reasoning skills. How would that work?
Are you able to come up with some really creative writings, but you don’t have the reasoning skills to understand what they mean );
Charming Billy
3 July 2011
“It doesn’t consider the academic theory that the reason American blacks have higher IQs than African blacks is their higher proportion of Caucasoid genes, perhaps as much as 25%. If this theory is correct, then the 25 who scored higher than 654 in GRE Verbal, the 23 who scored higher than 716 in GRE Quantitative, and the 27 who scored higher than 746 on GRE Analytical, would not be black at all according to other blacks because they would be mostly Caucasoid.”
Oh, I get it. They were thinking with the caucasian part of their brains when they got those high scores. See, I can reason after all.
Cheri
23 July 2011
I just took the GRE last week in Dallas. I had two weeks to study. I am 55 years old and I’m a black woman. I graduated magna cum laude at 51 years old. And, I scored 530 on the verbal. 350 on the quantitative but I never was good at math and it’s all I needed for graduate school. One more thing–years ago I got a 27, 28 and 29 on the ACT. Scored in the top 5% of the nation in Englsh. 17 in math brought the composite to 24. I’m just saying. Now, as you were “oh racist one…”
israeliteknight
24 July 2011
Cheri, if you’re trying to prove the point about how intellectually disadvantaged the black race is, particularly American blacks, then you’re right on target.
You got admitted to OUR [WHITE BUILT] graduate schools with a 350 in GRE quantitative?
How did that happen? Do you think you would be there if you were White, oh racist one?
http://fathersmanifesto.net/gre.htm
For the uninitiated, Cheri’s score of 350 is a whopping 54 points shy of the AVERAGE for Black women, or 404, which is already 232 points shy of the AVERAGE for Asian men of 638, MOST of whom were DENIED admission.
For what reason?
To make room for oh racist one Cheri and her ilk?
And what exactly do WE gain by all this individious racist nonsense?
Nothing?
No. Less than nothing, as evidenced by Cheri’s racist proclamations.
israeliteknight
5 August 2011
You’re not asking for equality, Cheri. You’re DEMANDING super rights for American blacks that NO other Black on the planet has ever been granted.
WHY exactly do you believe you should be granted SUPER rights? What exactly will you contribute to society if we discriminate against FAR MORE QUALIFIED Whites and Asians in order to grant you SUPER rights. What’s in it for us?
What’s in it for YOU? How will you benefit by forcing yourself onto people who don’t want to be associated with you? What do you think can possibly be gained by allowing a person with even worse quantitative skills than theAVERAGE Blacks woman, into a graduate school? Will you be even less honorable and less honest and less objective [and less qualified] than Beverly Hall?
israeliteknight
9 August 2011
We should add, Cheri, that if we take this GRE and IQ correlation and do a simple extraction of it, that your GRE score of 350 is an IQ of 88, just about where Koko the Gorilla scored.
If YOU should be ADMITED to our graduate schools (based ONLY on your RACE, and certainly not your IQ), then for what reason should Koko be DENIED admission?
Are you a gorillaist? Or would you allow Koko with her high verbal skills to displace you in graduate schools?
Too Much Free Time
15 August 2011
Israeliteknight, where did you go to school? what do you do for a living? and why should we accept anything you say?
Among other things, your argument that Obama lied about his IQ, even assuming your facts are accurate, fails to properly apply the principles of statistics. Statistics have only explanatory force, not actual force. Consequently, if there is a number or value that seems incredible, that does not violate any statistical law: it could indicate that the prior statistics were not based on all available evidence, that the number/value was recorded incorrrectly, or that the available evidence that prior statistics were based on was incomplete.
If Obama says his IQ is 127, this violates no “statistical law” based upon the average and standard deviation of IQ scores in Kenya. You might argue that this number is so incredibly out of line with the statistics that it must have been improperly recorded, but there is a) no evidence of this and b) Obama’s other academic achievements, e.g. graduating magna cum laude at Harvard Law. Rather, the statistics you cite are likely inapplicable to Obama, inaccurately compiled, or fail to reflect the actual world.
Additionally, why on earth would you apply Kenyan statistics to Obama? Even assuming that the birther nonsense is true and he was actually born in Kenya, it’s undisputed that he grew up in and was educated in Hawaii for most of his childhood (besides the four years in Indonesia). You might argue that intelligence is solely genetic (which is ridiculous), but even then you have to account for the fact that his mother is white and born in Kansas. Once again, Kenyan statistics become irrelevant.
Based on the website you linked to, I would imagine that you’re nothing but a bitter old white man trying to return to the days where even stupid, ignorant, poor white trash could feel they were better than somebody. I mean, brain size correlating with IQ? Really?
In conclusion, you’re an asshole. And wrong. Go fuck yourself.
Nate
24 August 2011
Interesting posts. Israelite’s comments regarding different ethnicities being “stupid” defy logic. No statistical analyses can account for all of the variables which influence IQ. I suggest that many differences in mean IQ scores are the result of differing cultural values. He seems like a very smart person, but he has allowed himself to be blindsided something other than facts (as we all do from time to time).
I disagree with Kolof as well. All IQ tests measure a certain amount of crystallized knowledge which include verbal abilities and information. A person who has access to books and other advantages as a result of economic or cultural differences will by definition have “practiced” some of the things that are measured by an IQ test. No one is as “creative” as was intimated. We all regurgitate information that we have learned; we just put it together in different ways.
All of the aformentioned factors (along with many, many others) influence the way we will score on tests. It is very clear to me that GRE scores are a form of IQ tests. Sure, correlation does not imply casuation, but my creative mind tells me that these scores have more to do with measuring one’s IQ than the size of one’s torso.
I didn’t sleep last night, so if I have any spelling errors or mistypes, please forgive me.
Nate
24 August 2011
ADDENDUM
Change, “It is very clear to me that GRE scores are a form of IQ tests” to “It is very clear to me that the GRE is a form of IQ test.”
Oh yeah, I didn’t look at one book or website to make the last post – at least not lately. Here’s my smile : ).
israeliteknight
29 August 2011
Nate, you may find the following analysis a bit more accurate than anything you’ve heard before:
In 1997, 110,462 black students took the SAT. 43 students scored a
>perfect 800 on the verbal, 24 scored a perfect 800 on the math and 3
>scored a perfect 800 on both.
The College Board keeps very close track of all these statistics, and you will never see them agree with that statement. Instead you will see the following:
http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/2010-total-group-profile-report-cbs.pdf
IF scores this low follow a perfect Gaussian Distribution, and IF the relatively large standard deviation reported by the College Board is accurate, and IF only Blacks are represented in these test scores and don’t include Whites pretending to be Blacks (in order to qualify for affirmative action admission), THEN, and only then, would the 429 SAT math score (SD 97) for the 196,961 Blacks who took the SAT in 2010 indicate that a grand total of 6 Black test takers would have scored 622.
But IF only 100 of them were Whites pretending to be Blacks, then NO Black scored higher than 600.
And IF the standard deviation is actually 80 like it is on other tests rather than 97, then NO Black scored higher than 600.
And IF the Gaussian Distribution is more like a spike like it is for Black salaries, rather than the smooth curve you see for data which is closer to the median, THEN it’s entirely possible that no Black actually scored higher than 500.
In statistical terms, if ONE, or TEN, or even one HUNDRED Blacks, DID score 800, it would be such an obvious outlier that it must be removed for further research and examination (or prosecution, in the case of cheating like Beverly Hall).
A score of 800 is more than two standard deviations higher than where ANY Black has ever scored since the beginning of the SAT, so, yes, Blacks ARE universally failing, and it’s the very SAT math test you cite which PROVES it.
To be more precise, of the 196,961 Blacks who took the SAT test in 2010, a maximum of six of them would have scored 622, IF, and only IF, scores this law fit a perfect Gaussian Distribution (which is actually not very likely). This is FOUR STANDARD deviations higher than the average SAT math score for Blacks of 428. Five standard deviations higher than that is 671, where even American educators can figure out for themselves that NO Black ever scored. A score of 719 is six standard deviations higher than their average, a score of 767 is seven standard deviations higher, and a score of 816 is EIGHT STANDARD DEVIATIONS higher than the average SAT math score for Blacks in 2010.
NO member of ANY group ever falls six standard deviations out of their mean for ANY measurement, ANY time, ANY place on the planet, much less 7 SD, much less 8 SD.
It’s absolutely absurd for any educator to believe such bs. And it’s CRIMINAL for Cal Tech to allow such a claim to be associated with their good name.
Sunday, 7:38 pm, August 29, 2010
It would appear that all of the math experts on this math forum would prefer to believe an obscure, misleading, erroneus, and clearly inaccurate claim that 24 American Blacks scored 800 in SAT math, rather than determining for themselves how unlikely it is that any student of any race or sex would ever possibly score EIGHT STANDARD DEVIATIONS higher than the mean for their group. It does not take very much at all to figure out that this is an IMPROBABLE feat, but it explains perfectly why so many of our educators were unable to detect the absolute certainty that cheating was involved when test scores increase as dramatically as they did in Beverly Hall’s district, Washington, DC, Pennsylvania, and now even with NAEP math.
You have successfully buried your heads completely up your .ss, and you continue to keep them firmly buried up your .ss, when you whiiiiiiine and screeeeech racism to anyone who questions your holy [but evil] grail.
There is NO CHANCE that any Black ANYWHERE on the planet could have scored EIGHT STANDARD DEVIATIONS HIGHER than their mean, not here, not in Botswana, and not in Ghana. The TIMSS math score of 364 (sD 77) of 11,590 Black students there, means that only 16 scored higher than 480 (4 SD), none scored higher than 518 (5 sd), and that to score 826 would require one to score 12 standard deviations (12 SD) higher than their mean. The TIMSS math score of 309 (SD 92) for 73,600 students in Ghana means that 2 scored higher than 493 (4 SD), none scored higher than 539 (5 SD), and to score 815 would require them to score eleven standard deviations (11 SD) higher than THEIR mean.
I also would not believe such a claim for Whites, particularly those now educated in our defunct and amoral public schools. And indeed the College Board reports that they now score only 536, with a standard deviation of 102. So of the 838,235 White students who took the SAT in 2010, none of them scored five standard deviations higher than their mean, which is 791, and only 26 scored 740, which is four standard deviations higher than their mean. So if a White student claims they scored 800, there’s a strong probability (no, it’s inevitable) that it’s based on bravado and not fact. Also, of the 112,254 White Hispanics who took the 2011 SAT math test, their score of 462 with a standard deviation of 104 means that only three of them scored 670 (SD = 4) and none of them scored 722 (SD = 5).
To believe that 24 Black American students scored THREE STANDARD DEVIATIONS HIGHER than the higest scoring 3 Hispanic students is the height of absurdity, particularly since all races of Hispanics (Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Cubans) score much higher than Blacks on ALL these standardized tests.
Robert has argued that the low SAT math scores of Blacks is not proof that Blacks have failed. Just for the sake of the argument, I have accepted Robert’s characterization. But the reality is that it’s not Black children who have failed, but WHITE adults who don’t seem to be able to come to grips with the depths of their failure: to wit, American students of ALL races scoring a standard deviation lower at the 12th grade level than at the 8th grade level in TIMSS math, while 12th graders of all races in most other countries score a standard deviation higher than their 8th graders. Pouring money into the Black community, in ALL its forms, has made the condition of American blacks MUCH worse than it already was: not the least of which is Black males of high school age being 400 TIMES as likely to be murderers, and 300 TIMES as likely to be murdered, than students all around the world, all the way from Ghana to Botswana to Saudi Arabia to Singapore to North Dakota. We already are the proud owners of FOUR of the murder capitals of the world (Washington, DC, Detroit, New Orleans, and lil’ ole’ Gary, Indiana) and don’t need to add to that sad legacy by staying on the current course.
Nate
29 August 2011
Israelite, I agree with nearly everything you have said. It is indeed true that a score of 8 SD higher than the mean is so unlikely as to be impossible. Maybe I had misunderstood what you intended to say earlier. My former understanding of what you said was that Blacks are “stupider” than other races. It could be that our definitions of “stupid” were different. I take stupid to mean a general and overwhelming inability to learn. It appears more that what you are saying is that Blacks are “ignorant” of what is deemed important by ETS (and possibly other IQ test creaters).
I suggest that no race is any more “stupid” than any other, but that in the overall scope of what is deemed important by educators, they fall far short of knowledge – and other mental abilities which do have to be developed. It is my opinion that cultural values, moraes, traditions, etc. have kept certain races more ignorant than other races.
Additionally, when we are looking at mean scores, we have to consider overall health to be a major factor in determining what one’s scores on a standardized test will be. In general, I believe that Asians eat food that is much healther than many White Americans. Futher, I suspect that the diet of many African Americans, or other Blacks, is generally less healthy than the average White American. (I think that if you correlated nutrition with IQ, you would recieve a very high coefficient.)
Another very important factor that influences a person’s IQ score is their sleep patterns. I purport that different cultures have varying sleep quality.
Thank you for the link to the college board statistics. In fact, I have no problem with the evidence you cite. It is clear that there is something going on, and that the mean differences are…very real! However, I believe that there are some causational factors that need to be considered. And yeah…8 standard deviations – wow.
As for your policital explanations (handouts to the Black community), I completely agree. Of course, I am White. I scored very well on the GRE (to my surprise). However, I did not apply to any ivy league universities, in part, because they seem to buy into the very lies that you mentioned. Nevertheless, I think there is room to question the types of things we measure, and whether they are accurate predictors of success. My understanding is that the GRE only accurately predicts 10 to 12 percent of success in graduate school. Additionally, do IQ tests that are accepted as “standard IQ tests” highly predict success? No, not highly.
This ties in very well to the item that Kolof mentioned regarding Gardner’s theory of Multiple Intelligence. For someone so smart, he has distorted information – either because it feeds his ego, or because he truly doesn’t know it (in which case, I do think it would be appropriate for him to do some research, so he could reproduce it accurately). Gardner’s theory of Multiple Intelligence is taught extensively in every self-respecting graduate school of psychology. No compitent researcher would discount a theory simplhy because it is difficult to measure. In my experience, Gardner gleans a lot of support from experts in the field of psychology.
Nate
29 August 2011
Sorry, change morae to moray.
Nate
30 August 2011
Oh here’s something I don’t understand. Why would you assume the SD to be 80, if they state it as being 97?
israeliteknight
31 August 2011
“I did not apply to any ivy league universities, in part, because they seem to buy into the very lies that you mentioned. Nevertheless, I think there is room to question the types of things we measure, and whether they are accurate predictors of success. My understanding is that the GRE only accurately predicts 10 to 12 percent of success in graduate school. Additionally, do IQ tests that are accepted as “standard IQ tests” highly predict success? No, not highly.”
Agreed about these so-called ivy league schools–they are all full of complete BS. After all, the smartest Mexican on the planet, Alberto Gonzalez, managed to get Harvard to give him a law degree without even asking if he had a second grade understanding of the US Constitution, which of course Congress and 100% of his classmates agreed he did NOT have.
However, as Le Carrefour accurately points out, there IS a strong correlation between IQ and GRE verbal scores. I’ve done similar correlations and found pretty much the same thing, except that the correlation between IQ and GRE quantitative scores is even stronger. Other racial and gender traits track more closely with GRE math than with IQ, particularly those influenced by Wechsler (which seems to be most of them). The main thing that throws GRE quantitative off are the large number of affirmative action students, which causes females to be two thirds of those who take the GRE even though they’re only one third of those with SAT scores high enough to be admitted to universities without special dispensation.
Here’s what the so-called smartest Black on the planet really believes:
“In 1997, 110,462 black students took the SAT. 43 students scored a perfect 800 on the verbal, 24 scored a perfect 800 on the math and 3 scored a perfect 800 on both.”
The odds that an American Black would score 719, which is six standard deviations higher than the national average of 428 for blacks, are one in a billion. The odds that he would score 816, which is eight standard deviations higher than the average, is a millionth of that, or one in 1 quadrillion.
To estimate the odds that TWO American Blacks would score 800, you must multiply these two figures together, which gives you one in 1 in 1E+30, which is a 1 followed by 30 zeros.
Thus, the odds of FOUR Blacks scoring 8 standard deviations above the average are 1 in 1E+60, of ten doing so, 1 in 1E+150, of 15 doing so is 1 in 1E+225, of 20 doing so is 1 in 1E+300.
Needless to say, the odds of TWENTY FOUR AMERICAN BLACKS all scoring 800 in SAT math is a number so low that spreadsheets can’t even handle it.
Do you think the smartest Black on the planet has bothered to update his web site to reflect that? Is that smart, or real stupid?
israeliteknight
3 September 2011
http://fathersmanifesto.net/tenstandarddeviations.htm
Ten Standard Deviations
In order for Obama to have an IQ of 122 as his campaigners promised he did, he would have had to score TEN standard deviations higher than his Kenyan Brethren!
Of ANY group, in ANY human endeavor, only one out of one billion score six standard deviations higher than their mean.Only one of 1 quadrillion score EIGHT standard deviations higher than their mean.
NOBODY scores TEN standard deviations higher than their group in ANY human endeavor.
Nate
5 September 2011
I think your suppositions are wrong. Even given that your math is right, Obama is more American than Kenyan. Most psychologists agree that genetics AND environment play a role in IQ. It would be more accurate to compare Obama’s supposed IQ to other Americans.
Having said that, based on what I have observed, it seems to me that Obama’s IQ may be on the high end of average, but not much more than that.
israeliteknight
5 September 2011
According to God’s Law, his father was a Kenyan, which makes Obama a Kenyan, regardless of WHO his mother might have been (and most likely she was a Russian jew).
But the most important point is that you don’t have a shred of statistical evidence that “Obama’s IQ may be on the high end of average”, do you? Many people believe lots of Blacks are intelligent. Even the Black mathematician who claims that 24 Blacks scored 800 oin SAT thinks Blacks are intelligent, doesn’t he?
But the STATISTICAL EVIDENCE is all the proof you need that what people think of Black intelligence, and reality, are two different things. By no stretch of the imagination can you claim that Obama is an “American”, on top of everything else. As a Kenyan (no matter whether or not he was born in Kenya as all his relatives CLAIM he was), he was a British subject at birth and TOTALLY unqualified to be president, by that fact alone. Furthermore, we have the following Verse to worry about:
“When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me; Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother”, Deuteronomy 17:14-15
Besides not being an American, he is NOT our brethren, and can NEVER be. This part of God’s Law we can NEVER change. Also, Obama is not even a “stranger” in this verse, as it refers only to strangers, of the SAME race. Obama is a mamzer:
A mamzer shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD, Deuteronomy 23:2
Nate
5 September 2011
You are right, I don’t have any evidence that Obama’s IQ is on the high end of average. If his true IQ is 122, he would be in the Superior range according to most mainstream scales. However, based on what I have observed, he doesn’t seem to be that smart. In fact, even an IQ of 122 isn’t that high in my “elitist” opinion. I think if he wasn’t at least Average, it would be blatantly obvious, and he would have difficulty reading his teleprompter.
I’m not sure that the “birther” argument is an intelligent argument to make, as it doesn’t resonate with most people. Additionally, he does have a birth certificate in Hawaii (though one may argue that it is forged).
To argue that “God’s law” makes it impossible for Obama to be one of our brethern makes whatever religion you are look bad (I assume it is Judiasm). I am a Christian who does not believe in the trinity. However, I believe that the “Race” refers to a set of beliefs and Spiritual experiences that set us apart from reprobates (see Acts chapter 10). To equate America to ownership of the land of Israel is false. In Dueteronomy, the Israelites were God’s chosen people, yet through time, because of their disobedience to God, He allowed them to be taken captive by the Babylonians.
To imply that some people are less intelligent because of the amount of melanin in their skin is silly. IF the statistical differences are equal to 10 SD, there is a serious problem with the construct validity. I do think there are slight differences in IQ between races, but mostly due to slight cultural (and a few anatomical) differences. But 10 SD? A finding that large calls into question your research itself, rather than the results you found.
israeliteknight
6 September 2011
Dear Nate, to reduce the statistical evidence to merely the amount of melanin in one’s skin makes you look far worse than I might make myself by noting that nobody I know (and trust) believes a word he ever spoke, much less his claim about being born in Hawaii.
In order for his brethren in Kenya to have an IQ of 102, they’d have to score SIX STANDARD DEVIATIONS higher than the mean for Kenya. There’s one chance in one billion of that happening. An IQ of 112 is EIGHT standard deviations higher than the mean, and the odds of that are less than one in one quadrillion (that’s one milliionth of a billion). For a Kenyan to have an IQ of 122 would require them to score TEN standard deviations higher than the mean. Do you have any idea of just how impossible that is?
People with such limited intellects CAN read teleprompters, but you can bet that they had no input at all on what’s on the teleprompter, nor can they comprehend what they read (as the Youtube videos prove when the teleprompter goes down).
And, no, I do not believe that the offspring of two different races can score higher than the lowest scoring race, any more than I believe the offspring of a race horse and mule can win the Preakness.
israeliteknight
6 September 2011
If the following link doesn’t work, you can find this image at the Fathers’ Manifesto dot net home page, file name gaussianiqracecountry.png
http://fathersmanifesto.net/gaussianiqracecountry.png
This is SCIENCE. Every word obama speaks is a LIE.
Nate
6 September 2011
Isralite, whether a person chooses to lie or not is not as much a reflection of his intelligence as his principles. As for the melanin in his skin, my comment was due to the fact that You had led the discussion in that direction, not I. Also, the best predictor we have of someone’s intelligence has nothing to do with the color of one’s skin (or race). There is no “lowest” race, and therefore there is no lowest common denominator from which we can deduce a limit to one’s intelligence due to heritage. Again, the best statistical predictor we have of IQ is to take the mean of the Father’s IQ and select the midpoint between that and an IQ score of 100, and to take the Mother’s IQ and select the midpoint between that IQ and a score of 100. Once those are done, average the 2 together. The reason for this is that we know that in a Gaussian distribution, all scores tend toward the mean.
You are incorrect that that an IQ score of 112 is eight Standard Deviations higher than the mean of Kenya (or any other group of people). If this number is derived by any mathematical process, we must reconsider the construct that we are measuring. By DEFINITION, average IQ is 100 across all populations (with small realistic differences).
In your very last sentence you claim “This is SCIENCE” but then you voice an opinion, “Every word Obama speaks is a LIE.” If this is science, then you should not include your subjective opinion. Instead you should make statements like, “it is clear to me that Obama is a pathological liar” etc.
I appreciate your sentiments, and I agree with many of your political conclusions. However, you frequently confuse science with opinion.
I enjoy this forum because it’s basis is true. The GRE is essentially an IQ test. Let’s get back to an academic discussion of that. I think that premis is pretty easy to defend, against MENSA or any other high IQ group that tries to discriminate.
israeliteknight
6 September 2011
The IQ of nations as listed in “IQ and the Wealth of Nations”, Lynn and Vanhanen, which is called “controversial” by Wikipedia, tracks amazingly close to PISA math scores for the 44 countries who participated. Where he places Hong Kong at 107, Hong Kong’s PISA score of 549 is right on target on this correlation. At the other end of the spectrum is Qatar, with an IQ of 78 and a PISA math score of 318. To achieve perfect linearity, the IQ of nations were adjusted to come up with a “PISA IQ”. There was no adjustment required for ten countries; Hong Kong, Germany, Sweden, the UK, Spain, the US, Thailand, Jordan, Tunisia, and Qatar. An adjustment of only one point was required for six countries: Korea (up 1 point), Japan (down 1 point), Poland, Luxembourg, Portugal, and Turkey. An adjustment of 2 points was required for six countries: France, Lithuania, Norway, Russia (up 2 points), Mexico, and Indonesia. The largest (and most surprising) adjustments were for Argentina and Kyrgyzstan (down 10 points), Canada ,Croatia, and Ireland (up 8 points), and Italy (down 6 points).
So I don’t see anything at all controversial about this, and in fact can think of all kinds of explanations for all the discreprancies. For example, when you consider that the authors are British, and remember the long history of conflict between them and the Irish, it would be completely reasonable for them to claim that the IQ of the Irish is 7 points lower than their own, even though they scored 6 points higher than the British on this particular test. It’s probably news to them, just as it’s news to most of the world, that the Koreans have slightly higher IQ’s than the Japanese, explaining this adjustment perfectly. It’s amazing that war torn countries like Croatia manage to maintain an education system where children score just as high, if not higher, than our own, suggesting they’r smarter than the British give them credit for. The six point downward adjustment for Italy is a bit puzzling, since Italy now always scores at the bottom (in Europe) on all these standardized tests, indicating that their IQ of 102 is a relic of the past. The 7 point upward adjustment for Canada is the inverse case from Italy. For these reasons and others, these countries could easily be removed as outliers, making the IQ of nations an almost perfect fit with PISA math scores.
How can this simple and verifiable fact be considered controversial, unless it just doesn’t fit someone’s preconceived notion of what social justice ought to be?
And here’s the point. According to the IQ of Nations, 23 of 86 African nations have IQs lower than 70. The IQ of Kenya is 72 and this tracks perfectly with the African nations, Botswana and Ghana, which have taken these international tests. And by DEFINITION, an IQ of 122 IS ten standard deviations higher than the mean, just as a Black SAT score of 800 is 8 standard deviations higher than the mean for American Blacks.
Northstar
7 September 2011
John W. Knight, aka Israeliteknight, who obsessively posts on this forum, appears to be out of touch with reality and not above making up his own “facts.” In case you need more evidence, can check out his website: http://fathersmanifesto.net/cp.htm.
Among other things, he asserts that Barack Obama’s IQ is 72, which would put Obama in the borderline-mentally retarded category. Regardless of your political views, any half-way intelligent person will realize that attribution is transparently nutty. Knight asserts that it is impossible for people from certain African nations to have IQs in the 120s. I guess he hasn’t spent time around many people from other nations. Even if mean IQs vary from nation to nation, national boundaries do not circumscribe intelligence. Intelligence is not implacably linked to geography! (Obama is only half Kenyan, btw, and was neither born nor raised there). I have a friend from Ghana who is a history professor at a university in the US. She is super bright, and her IQ is definitely above 120 and most likely above 130. She has many peer-reviewed articles in prestigious academic journals, unlike this “John W. Knight.”
Knight presents all kinds of statistics on his website, without providing sources. He has two un-sourced charts that list SAT math scores for the states of Iowa and New York. The charts include the demographic variables “White Catholic” and “White Protestant.” According to these two charts, the mean of White Catholics’ scores is more than one standard deviation below White Protestants’ scores for both states. What data base contains information about SAT examinees’ religion and then crosstabs those stats with information about the examinees’ race? This putative empirical data is clearly pulled out of Knight’s ass.
He also has a graph of annual salaries for various demographic groups — with no data source listed, nor the year or nation designated. I guess we can assume it is supposed to represent the US. The average annual salary for Jews is depicted as the lowest, lower than the average salary of any other group in the graph. Catholics are attributed the second lowest. The listed explanatory variables are a hodgepodge of overlapping categories including races, religions and professions. Jews and Catholics are religious designations, and their mean salaries are depicted as being substantially lower than Blacks, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, “Hispanics,” “teachers” and of course the halo-ed Protestants. If Knight is going to render his made-up charts believable, he needs to at least take a basic course in research design.
He writes, “Do you have to be stupid to become a Catholic, or does being a Catholic make you stupid (and poor)?” Poor? The top US states in the nation in terms of per capita income are 1. Delaware 2. New Jersey 3. Massachusetts and 4. Connecticut. Of those four, three of them — MA, CT and NJ — are also three of the top four states in percentage of Catholics. Catholics are stupid? Massachusetts has the second highest percentage of Catholics among all states and has the highest percentage of college graduates per capita.
Knight is another one of those anti-Semites who believes the Holocaust is a hoax. Here is the convoluted conclusion he draws: “We can conclude that Hitler played a pivotal role in a 4.9% INCREASE in the worldwide population of jews [sic], something that required an ingenious shipment of jews across Europe to protect them from the firebombing that completely destroyed Christian populations in cities like Dresden and Hamburg.” He is asserting that Christians were the main target of the Nazis and that Hitler tried to protect Jews. (!)
Not sure how old Knight is, but his points of view are consistent with the KKK of ninety years ago. Since he obviously has mental problems and alcoholism (see his rant against Mothers Against Drunk Driving and his screed against the way that DUIs are administered), he is most likely disabled, and our taxes are likely funding his time to obsessively post here. For his up-keep, he is probably being sustained by Disability payments and Medicaid.
israeliteknight
7 September 2011
Some kind of feeble minded IDIOT wrote the following:
“He also has a graph of annual salaries for various demographic groups — with no data source listed, nor the year or nation designated. I guess we can assume it is supposed to represent the US. The average annual salary for Jews is depicted as the lowest, lower than the average salary of any other group in the graph. Catholics are attributed the second lowest. ”
ALL of these graphs and figures are *exceedingly* cited, with the url right there on the pages, and the url for the above being:
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=jewish&l1=
The average salary of “Jewish” as reported by this STATISTICAL DATABASE of $41,000 is right on target with Israel’s miserably low PISA score, and HIGHER than would be predicted by Professor Lynn’s estimate of 92 for the average IQ of Israel.
If you can’t even follow a url, get out of the kitchen!
Here are some more references for those who can’t even follow a url:
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Protestant&l1= shows an average salary of $56,000
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Catholic&l1= Catholic is $42,000
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=pashto&l1= $184,000 for Pashto speakers
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=African+American&l1= $57,000 for African American
Interesting that African Americans earn 39% more than Jewish Americans, eh?
Could it be that American Jews ARE that stupid?
israeliteknight
7 September 2011
“He writes, ‘Do you have to be stupid to become a Catholic, or does being a Catholic make you stupid (and poor)?’ Poor? The top US states in the nation in terms of per capita income are 1. Delaware 2. New Jersey 3. Massachusetts and 4. Connecticut. Of those four, three of them — MA, CT and NJ — are also three of the top four states in percentage of Catholics. Catholics are stupid? Massachusetts has the second highest percentage of Catholics among all states and has the highest percentage of college graduates per capita.”
You proclaim that there is no relationship between religion and IQ, and then turn right around and proclaim that the “second highest percentage of Catholics among all states [] has the highest percentage of college graduates per capita”.
Do you feel strongly both ways?
You FORGOT to mention that ALL of the Murder Capitols of the World are in the US, in CATHOLIC cities! Compared to Christians in mostly Protestant states, pagans in mostly Catholic states are six TIMES more likely to murder even though they have five TIMES as many police per capita, 8 TIMES more likely to have an abortion even though this “church” claims it opposes abortion, 21% more likely to divorce even though they are 50% less likely to marry in the first place, and have SAT scores 228 points lower even though they spend FIVE TIMES as much per student for “education”, not even counting the 40% of the students in states like Delaware who aren’t included in SAT scores because they never even graduate from high school?” While the vast majority of the voters in the 35 mostly Protestant states, plus now Texas and California, have banned sodomite marriages, the mostly Catholic states, including Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Connecticut, and New York, have sugar coated this issue by calling it “gay rights” and “legalized” the abomination called “gay marriages”. The close vote in California, 52% for banning sodomy and 48% opposed, is due to the high percentage of Catholics in the state, 28.8%, demonstrating that Catholicism’s influence adversely affects twice as many of the population as their actual church membership.
israeliteknight
7 September 2011
I must take exception with Nate’s belief or observation that “There is no ‘lowest’ race, and therefore there is no lowest common denominator from which we can deduce a limit to one’s intelligence due to heritage”, and the following graph shows why:
http://fathersmanifesto.net/timssghana.png
For those who can’t read graphs, what it says is that the LOWEST scoring student in Hong Kong scores higher than the HIGHEST scoring student in Ghana. So when it comes to math skills, or IQ, or test skills, or whatever you want to call it (and such skills are VITAL to a successful society and profitable economy), one group clearly DOES have what it takes, and the other clearly does NOT.
There is no question about why the average income in Hong Kong is one THOUSAND times greater than the average in Ghana. And it has nothing to do with us honkies “discriminating against” Blacks, or giving Chinese an unfair advantage, as Northstar might try to make you believe.
Northstar
8 September 2011
J.W. Knight writes, “You proclaim that there is no relationship between religion and IQ, and then turn right around and proclaim that the ‘second highest percentage of Catholics among all states [] has the highest percentage of college graduates per capita.’”
I did not claim there is no relationship between religion and IQ. I asserted that your charts comparing White Catholics’ quantitative SAT Scores to White Protestants’ quantitative SAT scores in NY and IA are bogus. What are your sources? The only chart with a standardized-test basis I could find that presents intelligence in relation to specific religions is at http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2011/06/jews-and-buddhists-are-our-cognitive.html
The chart utilizes IQ equivalencies based on the WORDSUM test performance, administered in the General Social Survey. IQ means for religion categories of the GSS are as follows: Judaism — 110.8; Buddhism — 108.1; None — 102.6; Other — 101.9; Catholicism — 101.2; Protestantism — 98.7; Interdenominationalism — 98.0; Christian (non-denominational) — 97.1.
I did not present US state statistics showing a correlation of wealth/college degrees with Catholicism as evidence for a belief on my part that religion is causal in these factors. The relationship may be spurious or may not be. But since you are using US state and international nation-state statistics referencing percentages of Catholics vs. Protestants in an attempt to prove Protestants’ supposed moral, intelligence and wealth superiority, I used the same approach to provide evidence which contradicts yours.
More evidence in this regard: A US Census report, Marital Events of Americans: 2009, based on the American Community Survey of 2009, shows the highest divorce rates are in the South (historically Catholic-scarce). It reveals that the Northeast, with the nation’s highest per-capita number of Catholics, has the lowest divorce rate in the nation. A media summary of the report: “There are 10.2 divorces per 1000 men in the South (defined by the Census as Delaware, District of Columbia, Florida, Georgia, Maryland, North and South Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi, Tennessee, Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, and Texas) and 11.1 per 1000 women–above the national average of 9.2 for men and 9.7 for women in 2009. In the Northeast (defined as Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Vermont, New Jersey, New York, and Pennsylvania) the rate is 7.2 per 1000 for men and 7.5 per 1,000 for women.
This same regional relationship holds for crime. According to the FBI’s Crime Index rate for 2002, the Northeast is the safest area, followed by the Midwest, followed by the West. The Southeast has the highest crime rates. See http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/crime1.aspx. From the article: “New England seems to be an especially safe and secure region.” “New Jersey boasts three of the nation’s safest and most secure metro areas.” and “On the other hand, the South seems to be particularly challenged with crime.”
What is the source for your assertion that “all of the murder capitols of the world are in the US, in Catholic cities”?
JW Knight writes: “There is no question about why the average income in Hong Kong is one thousand times greater than the average in Ghana. It has nothing to do with us honkies ‘discriminating against’ Blacks, or giving Chinese an unfair advantage, as Northstar might try to make you believe.”
I didn’t assert that Blacks are discriminated against, nor did I dispute that IQ means vary from nation to nation, though I do not accept the methodology of Lynn and Vanhanen’s work in that regard. I challenged your claim that it is virtually impossible for someone from Ghana or Kenya to have an IQ that is 127. You are accepting Lynn and Vanhanen highly controversial data acquisition methods, and you are assuming that for each national population, IQ conforms to a bell-shaped distribution. You are also apparently claiming that someone born in an impoverished nation like Kenya (which Obama was not, but let’s say for sake of argument, he was), who then grows up in a developed country, could not experience increases in IQ. Lynn and Vanhanen themselves acknowledge that nutrients play a role in intelligence. The brain’s functioning is related to general health. IQ is not set in stone, but is malleable by factors like nutrition, health care access and mental enrichment opportunities, which would all likely improve if someone moves from a poor country to a rich one.
israeliteknight
8 September 2011
Professor Lynn generously puts the IQ of Israel, which is 90% Ashkenazi Jews, at 94. The World Health Organization did a study on worldwide traffic safety and found that Israel had a worse traffic safety record than India (IQ of 81), and even Ghana (IQ of 71):
http://fathersmanifesto.net/iqdrivers.htm
IF Professor Lynn is correct, THEN an IQ of 122 is SIX STANDARD DEVIATIONS higher than Israel’s average IQ of 94, which means there is ONE chance out of a BILLION that ONE Israeli [read: Ashkenazi Jew] has an IQ of 122, and NO chance that any other Ashkenazi Jew in the world does, or that ANY Ashkenazi Jew could have an IQ of 134, which is EIGHT standard deviations higher than Israel. Thus the claim that Einstein had an IQ of 134 has a probability of less than one in one QUADRILLION of being correct and true.
IF the inability of Ashkenazi Jews in Israel to build roads any safer than a country like India with an IQ Of 81 is more representative of their collective national intelligence than a simple standardized test on which the likelihood of a Beverly-Hall-Class scandal is high, then and IQ of 122 would be EIGHT standard deviations higher than Israel’s IQ, in which the probability of ONE Ashkenazi Jew scoring 122 is one in one QUADRILLION.
israeliteknight
8 September 2011
Update:
ALL of these graphs and figures are *exceedingly* cited, with the url right there on the pages, and the url for the above being:
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=jewish&l1=
The average salary of “Jewish” as reported by this STATISTICAL DATABASE of $41,000 is right on target with Israel’s miserably low PISA score, and HIGHER than would be predicted by Professor Lynn’s estimate of 92 for the average IQ of Israel.
If you can’t even follow a url, get out of the kitchen!
Here are some more references for those who can’t even follow a url:
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Protestant&l1= shows an average salary of $56,000
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Catholic&l1= Catholic is $42,000
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=pashto&l1= $184,000 for Pashto speakers
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=African+American&l1= $57,000 for African American
Interesting that African Americans earn 39% more than Jewish Americans, eh?
Could it be that American Jews ARE that stupid?
Is the entire reason American Jews earn less than American Blacks due to their limited intellect, their poor performance as workers, or discrimination by us honkies?
israeliteknight
9 September 2011
The following is an absolute absurdity and impossibility:
” Lynn explains this by breaking down the Israeli population into three components: 40 percent Ashkenazi Jews with an average IQ of 103; 40 percent Sephardi Jews (Oriental Jewish) with an average IQ of 91; and 20 percent Arab with an average IQ of 86. ”
In Pisa Math, Israel scores 442, which is 34 points lower than MUSLIM countries like Azerbaijan (at 476). Croatia, which is 44% Muslim, scored 467, which is 25 points higher than Israel. On Exhibit 2.1, pg. 62, we find that in TIMSS Advanced Math, Iran, a mostly Muslim nation, scored 497, which is 48 points higher than Italy, at 449, who Professor Lynn himself estimates has an average IQ of 102. So the odds are great (no, it’s inevitable) that the presence of Muslims in Israel would RAISE their scores, not lower them. And why would Asian or Oriental Jews score so much lower than Asians when so many Asian nations score MUCH higher than us (much less Israel)? Do Sephardic Jews REALLY score more than one standard deviation lower than Ashkenazi jews?
And why is it ok for Jews to claim that Ashkenazi Jews have high IQ’s (which they obviously don’t), when it’s NOT ok for us to even mention the high IQ’s of nations like Norway or Finland or the Netherlands (who score even higher than Korea and Japan on some tests)? Why is this double standard found to be so acceptable amongst our WHITE peers who OUGHT to be cross checking these “facts” to the HILT?
40% Ashkenazi = X
40% Sephardic = .88X
20% Arab = 467 (Croatia’s score)
.4X + .4 * .88X + .2 * 467 = 442
.752X + 93.4 = 442
.752X = 348.6
X = 463 = Score of Ashkenazi Jews
.88X = 408 = Score of Sephardic Jews
A score of 463 for Ashkenazi Jews in Israel is in the range of Greece at 459 and an IQ of 92, Azerbaijan at 476 and an IQ of 87, and Turkey at 242 and an IQ of 90.
So why doesn’t our oh so compassionate newsmedia or oh so expensive education system remind us daily that it’s mathematically and statistically impossible for even ONE Ashkenazi jew to have an IQ of 122, SIX standard deviations higher than their mean?
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=calculus+teacher&l1=
These are the salaries of various races and professions:
Mexican $50,000
Asian $54,000
White $71,000
Black $63,000
African American $57,000
Puerto Rican $56,000
Cuban $60,000
Hispanic $60,000
Jewish $40,000
Physicist $89,000
Protestant $54,000
Catholic $43,000
LVN Nurse $45,000
RN Nurse $79,000
Mormon $45,000
Rabbi $43,000
Teacher $57,000
Math Teacher $57,000
Calculus Teacher $52,000
Indian $58,000
White Hispanic $62,000
Danger pay Afghanistan $120,000
Speaks Pashto $195,000
Journalist $31,000
Web Designer AJAX $86,000
Ph.D. $95,000
Bachelor’s $68,000
If Ashkenazi Jews have such high IQ’s, why would African Americans, who professor Lynn estimates have an IQ of 85, earn, 57% more than Jewish and 47% more than Rabbis?
Isn’t the ability of our free enterprise system to flush out the truth about who is productive and who is not a fantastic resource for the TRUTH about who is productive, and who is NOT productive? Doesn’t this tell the whole story about how we’ve been LIED to about Ashkenazi Jews having an AVERAGE IQ of 122?
What we have here is statistical PROOF that not even one Ashkenazi Jew, not even Einstein, EVER had an IQ of 122!
israeliteknight
9 September 2011
“I didn’t assert that Blacks are discriminated against, nor did I dispute that IQ means vary from nation to nation, though I do not accept the methodology of Lynn and Vanhanen’s work in that regard. I challenged your claim that it is virtually impossible for someone from Ghana or Kenya to have an IQ that is 127. You are accepting Lynn and Vanhanen highly controversial data acquisition methods, and you are assuming that for each national population, IQ conforms to a bell-shaped distribution. You are also apparently claiming that someone born in an impoverished nation like Kenya (which Obama was not, but let’s say for sake of argument, he was), who then grows up in a developed country, could not experience increases in IQ.”
Not at all. My comment about Ghana and Botswana have nothing to do with how Lynn et. al. measured the IQ’s of these countries. It’s based exclusively on the following TIMSS study. The assumption that the curve is a bell curve makes them look BETTER, not worse. I am positive that data on the outter extremes of such test scores do NOT follow the typical Gaussian curve, and instead are more like spikes, sorta like Black incomes are:
2007 TIMSS Math Score http://timss.bc.edu/timss2007/intl_reports.html
http://fathersmanifesto.net/timssghana.png
If you can’t read the above graph, let me explain it to you. This is PRECISELY how the TIMSS scores appear when they are graphed out for Botswana, Ghana, and Hong Kong. What it shows is that NO Chinese student in Hong Kong scored as low as the HIGHEST scoring Black student in Ghana. To be more precise, of the 73,600 in Ghana who took the test, the top two scoring students scored 493, which is four standard deviations higher than their mean score of 309, but THREE standard deviations lower than the AVERAGE for Hong Kong.
If you want to equate this to Lynn’s estimate that the average IQ of Hong Kong is 107, then this means that the IQ of the top two students in Ghana is 92.
And I repeat. THIS IS VERY GENEROUS. IF the scores don’t follow a typical Gaussian Distribution, then the top scoring two students in Ghana could have IQ’s as low as 85, or even lower.
“Lynn and Vanhanen themselves acknowledge that nutrients play a role in intelligence. The brain’s functioning is related to general health. IQ is not set in stone, but is malleable by factors like nutrition, health care access and mental enrichment opportunities, which would all likely improve if someone moves from a poor country to a rich one.”
Does it mean anything to you that the most nourished and coddled (and FATTEST) Blacks on the planet, the ones who we coddle with $25 THOUSAND per year per student to “educate”, are in Washington, DC, where Blacks now score LOWER than non-coddled skinny Blacks in Mozambique (search for the Beaton Gonzalez IAEP to NAEP correlation)? Is it possible that ONE of them scored TEN STANDARD DEVIATIONS higher than the mean, to achieve an IQ of 127? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Over the last 30 years, of the creme de le creme of American Blacks, the more than 200,000 who benefitted from affirmative action admission to our once fine universities, and who took the Graduate Record Examination, not a SINGLE one scored in the range of an IQ of 127. The highest scoring group of Black women on GRE quantitative was in 1997 when 16,513 of them scored an average of 404, with a standard deviation of 104. What this means is that 23 of them scored 560, or three standard deviations higher than the mean, and that NONE of them scored 612, or four standard deviations higher.
http://fathersmanifesto.net/gresexrace.gif
These 23 highest scoring Black women scored two standard deviations lower than the AVERAGE Asian man. Even if we assumed that the AVERAGE IQ of these top scoring Asian men is 105 (these are US born Asians, not Asians educated in Asia), two standard deviations lower than that is an IQ of 95. A simple Gaussian Distribution (bell curve) shows that NONE of them have an IQ higher than 96. These are not AVERAGE American Blacks. These are the VERY TOP 1/2% of them. These are the very Blacks for whom we turned our entire education system upside down to try to educate, spending TRILLIONS of extra dollars. And along the way, Asians managed to educate THEMSELVES so well that only 116 of the 5,097 Asian men to took the GRE in 1997 scored as low as these 23 HIGHEST scoring Black women. Why did I compare them to Black women and not Black men? Because Blacks are the only race who take the SAT where the women score higher than the men (in verbal, not in math).
Nate
9 September 2011
Here’s the thing. Although Einstein’s IQ may not have been tested by standardized tests, it is generally understood that his IQ was well over 122. Pointing out this anecdotal evidence is essentially creating a straw man, then knocking it down. In reality, Einstein’s IQ was probably much higher than 122, and adds validity to your opponent’s argument, not yours (israelite).
What you are tending to do is:
1. Comparing apples and oranges. These countries spead different languages, and wouldn’t not all have the exact same tests. Therefore, diifferences in standardized scores may be due to chance and other standardization errors.
2. Picking out data that seems to fit your theory, and then testing it. A true study would have the theory, and then test the data.
3. Misinterpreting the data to fit your value system. For instance, from the list of various races and professions you extrapolate the idea that how much these groups earn is:
a) Related to their productivity, and
b) Resulting from lower IQs
While you seem to be an apt numbers cruncher, you also seem to be a bad researcher. And frankly, I also question the sources for your data.
Now I bring up these points, not because I don’t like you, or the color of your skin, but becuase these seem to be very plausibe alternative explanations for your numbers. Indeed, I could list others from earlier on in the forum.
If you could show me evidentiary support that at least all of these criteria have been met, I might be able to reexamine your claims. However, based on what you have said, I don’t think you can, or will provide this.
Again, in order to compare these things, there MUST be uniformity among the research. All the countries MUST take the same test, have the same language and cultural backgrounds, etc. (at least to a very large extent). Otherwise, the purportations are baseless. Sorry dude, that’s just the way it is.
Northstar
9 September 2011
J.W. Knight,
Your links to back up your chart of annual salaries for different demographic groups come from indeed.com. The links you provided in your post of Sept. 7 are to searches that you apparently conducted yourself on that website (I can tell because your characteristic spelling “jewish,” instead of Jewish comes up when one clicks on the link). Do you know how “indeed.com” computes mean salaries based on demographic adjectives such as Catholic, Puerto Rican, etc.? Merely by doing searches of job listings with those words in the titles! For example, the mean salaries for “Mexican” would include salaries listed for managers of Chipotle Mexican Grill. This hardly backs up your chart claiming that Catholics earn less than the other demographic groups. Jobs with the word “Catholic” in the title may pay relatively lower than jobs with other demographic adjectives in the title; that’s all your chart shows, not people’s annual income as a function of their religion!
You refer to this source as a “statistical data base.” Valid data that describes groups of people is based on interviews or surveys of statistically-representative samples. Valid demographic data would come from the US Census, or the GSS, or some other scientifically-conducted data-gathering enterprise. An electronic search program that scans want-ads for terms hardly gives any kind of legitimate information on mean incomes of Catholics and Jews. Yet you label your chart “Annual Salaries by Race and Profession.” Talk about deceptive and disingenuous!
You still haven’t provided the source for your graph indicating that White Catholics score more than one standard deviation lower than White Protestants on the quantitative section of the SAT for the states of Iowa and New York. You also haven’t provided evidence for your claim that “all of the murder capitols of the world are in the US, in Catholic cities.” According to http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2008/09/28/the_list_murder_capitals_of_the_world, the top five murder capitals of the world are 1. Caracas Venezuela 2. Cape Town, South Africa 3. New Orleans 4. Moscow and 5. Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea. Just one is in the US, and Catholics comprise slightly more than 1/3 of the population of that city.
Based on online information about Lynn and Vanhanen’s IQ database, their national means have a standard deviation of 15. For you to correctly assert that an IQ of 122 would constitute more than six standard deviations higher than the attributed Israeli IQ of 94, the standard deviation would have to be less than five.
israeliteknight
10 September 2011
There is no quantitative section of the SAT. You most likely mean the math section, the cites for which are on the following pages:
http://fathersmanifesto.net/satbystate.htm
http://fathersmanifesto.net/satrace2004.htm
http://fathersmanifesto.net/cp.htm
Please don’t claim again that they are not adequately cited. They are ALL very well cited, and what they show is that WHITES in mostly Protestant states like Iowa and North Dakota score a standard deviation higher on all three sections of the SAT than “whites” in mostly Catholic states like Massachusetts and Rhode Island.
What’s your point about indeed.com? At least now you admit that it WAS well cited, right? But exactly what do you object to about using this as a source for average salaries? Do you know why I know that you can easily use this to cross check average salaries reported by the Census Bureau studies? Because this is exactly what I did. Which part do you object to, or claim is “deceptive and disingenuous!”.
Of course there’s nothing at all deceptive or disingenuous about this—- if you can follow a simple LINK so you can get the point! You evidently couldn’t even follow the link. Or you simply didn’t like the fact that American Blacks earn fifty percent more than American Jews?
Much of the crime data in this country comes from the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report. Of course you probably already know that, right? This crime data comes directly from this report, and ALL Of it is very easy to find, especially now that we know that you CAN search the internet. Right? Ok, maybe not. So let me spoon feed it to you, once again:
http://fathersmanifesto.net/vars.gif
http://fathersmanifesto.net/murder.htm
“Based on online information about Lynn and Vanhanen’s IQ database, their national means have a standard deviation of 15. For you to correctly assert that an IQ of 122 would constitute more than six standard deviations higher than the attributed Israeli IQ of 94, the standard deviation would have to be less than five”
They’re being very generous, which is why I use PISA and TIMSS and IAEP scores and their standard deviations. They were so generous that they agreed to claim that Ashkenazi Jews in Israel have an average IQ of 103, even though the TIMSS math score in 2007 for Israel EXCLUDES Palestinians, and thus is only Jews in Israel. The score of 463 for ONLY Jews in Israel is in the range of Greece at 459 and an IQ of 92, Azerbaijan at 476 and an IQ of 87, and Turkey at 242 and an IQ of 90. I don’t buy this business about Ashkenazi Jews being smarter than ANYBODY, not even Sephardic Jews. And I think it’s extremely generous to assume that the IQ of all of Israel is only 5 IQ points lower than Azerbaijan.
http://timss.bc.edu/timss2007/PDF/TIMSS2007_InternationalMathematicsReport.pdf
In fact, Azerbaijan has 784,018 vehicles and 1,107 traffic fatalities, one fatal accident per 708 vehicles, which makes roads there 70% safer (you are 70% less likely to die on the roads there than in Israel), indicating that the collective IQ of both Ashkenaja and Sephardic Jews isn’t even on par with the 87 IQ of Azerbaijan:
http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/road_safety_status/country_profiles/azerbaijan.pdf
israeliteknight
10 September 2011
“Misinterpreting the data to fit your value system. For instance, from the list of various races and professions you extrapolate the idea that how much these groups earn is:
a) Related to their productivity, and
b) Resulting from lower IQs”
Nate, there is no question here. Smarter people earn more than dumber people. More productive people earn more than less productive people. Whether you like it or not, this is HOW a free enterprise system works. The entire idea of equating IQ to GRE scores is to expain the differences in incomes between races, sexes, professions, countries, and ethnic groups. If you don’t believe that, you need to take it up with the College Board, not this forum, and not me.
Here’s a starting point for you:
http://fathersmanifesto.net/iq.htm
“Here’s the thing. Although Einstein’s IQ may not have been tested by standardized tests, it is generally understood that his IQ was well over 122. Pointing out this anecdotal evidence is essentially creating a straw man, then knocking it down. In reality, Einstein’s IQ was probably much higher than 122, and adds validity to your opponent’s argument, not yours (israelite).”
How can it be “generally understood that his IQ was well over 122″, especially for a guy who never passed algebra and was rejected from every university he ever applied to, and ESPECIALLY if his IQ was never measured? You need to find out who Einstein really was and quit listening to what Jews, whose brethren in Israel score lower than Azerbaijan on CREDIBLE worldwide studies, tell you about him. We KNOW with certainty that NO student, not even a Jew, has ever scored EIGHT STANDARD DEVIATIONS higher than the mean for their group. Yet without testing Einstein, this is exactly what you’re claiming about him:
http://fathersmanifesto.net/einstein.htm
Nate
10 September 2011
The problem is that not everyone is compared by the same standard. Even between standard IQ tests the correlation is only about .90. When you add to that the error associated with different cultures and languages, the tests are not comparable.
Northstar
10 September 2011
israelite says: “What’s your point about indeed.com? At least now you admit that it WAS well cited, right? But exactly what do you object to about using this as a source for average salaries?”
Your graph of average salaries does not represent what you are claiming it represents. Indeed.com is not a demographic research site. Their searches merely look for words and then calculate salaries for ads with those words in them. It is not descriptive of what people conforming to demographic categories earn! You talk sarcastically about “spoon feeding” me, but you have apparently have never taken a course in statistics, research methods or survey design. If you have Census data to backup your claims that Catholics and Jews earn less than other demographic groups, then provide a link to the data. The links you have provided are meaningless, because they are not valid DEMOGRAPHIC data.
You present a chart titled “Iowa SAT Math Score, 2010.” According to the chart, the mean for white Catholics is approximately 440; for white Protestants 590. Since the SAT math standard deviation is 115, almost one and a half standard deviations separate those scores. What is your source for the claims of that particular chart? Don’t provide links listing official data for the different states or races; they are irrelevant. I am asking for official results for the STATE of IOWA, categorizing the performance of those who took the test according to their RELIGION.
israeliteknight
11 September 2011
“Based on online information about Lynn and Vanhanen’s IQ database, their national means have a standard deviation of 15. For you to correctly assert that an IQ of 122 would constitute more than six standard deviations higher than the attributed Israeli IQ of 94, the standard deviation would have to be less than five.”
You don’t seem to know what a standard deviation is, or how to measure it. As an example, consider Botswana’s TIMSS math score of 364 with a standard deviation of 77. What this means is that two thirds of Botswana’s students score 364 +/- 38.5, or between 325.5 and 402.5. One sixth of them score higher than 402.5 and one sixth of them score lower than 325.5, which is the one standard deviation. Two standard deviations out is a score of 441, and only 264 students in Botswana scored higher than this. Three standard deviations out is 480, and only 16 students scored higher than this. Four standard deviations out is 518 and no student scored this high. Five standard deviations out is 557, and obviously no student scored higher than that. Ditto for six standard deviations out, which is a score of 585. However, the AVERAGE for Hong Kong was 607, so in order for a student in Botswana to score 607, they would have to score 6.3 SD higher than their average.
The difference in their IQ is 106 – 72 = 34 IQ points.
If the standard deviation for these IQ scores is the usual 10 points, then the gap in IQ between Hong Kong and Botswana is 6.3 standard deviations. However, IF the standard deviation is 15 points (as you claim they say it is), then the gap in IQ scores is only four standard deviations. I’d like to know where they got the idea to use 15 points as the standard deviation for IQ’s, rather than ten points like everyone else uses.
Israel’s TIMSS score of 463 is almost a standard deviation lower than Slovenia, who Professor Lynn estimates have an IQ of only 95. It’s also almost a standard deviation lower than Armenia’s who they estimate have an IQ of 93. It’s also .1 SD lower than Malaysia, who they estimate to have an IQ of 92. It’s only a few points higher than Jordan, with an IQ of 87. It’s only 99 points higher than Botswana (IQ = 72), but 144 points lower than Hong Kong (IQ = 106). A linear extrapolation puts Israel’s IQ at 86.
Wouldn’t you say that Professor Lynn was extremely generous (or was forced by invidious discrimination against Whites by American publishers) to put Israel’s IQ at 8 points higher than where credible, reliable, verifiable, widely accepted, undisputed studies tell us it ought to be?
israeliteknight
11 September 2011
“You present a chart titled ‘Iowa SAT Math Score, 2010.’ According to the chart, the mean for white Catholics is approximately 440; for white Protestants 590. Since the SAT math standard deviation is 115, almost one and a half standard deviations separate those scores. What is your source for the claims of that particular chart? Don’t provide links listing official data for the different states or races; they are irrelevant. I am asking for official results for the STATE of IOWA, categorizing the performance of those who took the test according to their RELIGION.”
There are a number of different ways to calculate this from the SAT data. Remember that the gap in PISA scores between Catholic and Protestant countries is more than 4 standard deviations, so we shouldn’t be surprised to discover a similar gap here:
Iowa
Rhode Island
% Catholic
11%
45%
% Protestant
89%
55%
Whites SAT Math
613
533
Whites SAT Verbal
592
512
A = SAT Score Catholics
B = SAT score Protestants
Math
Iowa
0.11 * A + 0.89 * B = 613
RI
0.45 * A + 0.55 * B = 533
A = (613 – .89B)/.11
0.45 * (613 – .89B)/0.11 +.55B = 533
2,507.72 – 3.641B + .55B = 533
3.091B = 1,974.72
B = 638.9 = SAT Score for Protestants
A = (613 – .89 * 638.9)/.11 = 403.4 = SAT Score for Protestants
Northstar
12 September 2011
Isrealite writes: “There are a number of different ways to calculate this from the SAT data. Remember that the gap in PISA scores between Catholic and Protestant countries is more than 4 standard deviations, so we shouldn’t be surprised to discover a similar gap here.”
OK, so you are admitting that you are extrapolating based on something that is not relevant. Your chart says “Iowa SAT Math Score, 2010”, not “PISA score differences between Sweden and Guatemala.” You do not have valid Iowa SAT data from the ETS, crosstabing examinee’s religion and their associated scores. Thus, your chart is mislabeled, and an utter lie, just like the nonsense “income” chart based on the indeed.com want-ads. You are really desperate to prove your group’s superiority and you will fabricate to do it. How sad. There are no SAT data showing Protestants scoring higher than Catholics.
You write: “Professor Lynn generously puts the IQ of Israel, which is 90% Ashkenazi Jews, at 94. … IF Professor Lynn is correct, then an IQ of 122 is SIX STANDARD DEVIATIONS higher than Israel’s average IQ of 94, which means there is ONE chance out of a BILLION that ONE Israeli [read: Ashkenazi Jew] has an IQ of 122.”
I already pointed out that Lynn gives standard deviation as 15. So you then change your terms, and say that he is “too generous,” even after you are have listed him as your source. (!) For an IQ of 122 to be six standard deviations higher than a mean of 94, the standard deviation would have to be approximately 4.7. You are thus asserting that hardly any Jews are likely to have IQs above 108 (three standard deviations above 94), & you are also asserting that very few or no Jews have IQs below 80. I guess there are no “slow” people or people with Down’s Syndrome in Israel. Apparently you are the one who doesn’t know what standard deviation is. There are no intelligence distributions like those you claim.
Northstar
12 September 2011
re: the math calculations you posted, based on the percentage of Catholics in Rhode Island vs. those in Iowa, you are assuming that religion is a factor and the only operative factor in the different state SAT scores. Your little trick would not be accepted in any beginning researh methods class. Unless you have data with actual scores corresponding to religion, you are not on solid ground with your assumptions. The differences in scores could co-vary with any number of other things, like percent urbanized, the percentage of immigrants, teacher-to-student ratios, and school district spending.
israeliteknight
12 September 2011
“re: the math calculations you posted, based on the percentage of Catholics in Rhode Island vs. those in Iowa, you are assuming that religion is a factor and the only operative factor in the different state SAT scores. Your little trick would not be accepted in any beginning researh methods class. Unless you have data with actual scores corresponding to religion, you are not on solid ground with your assumptions. The differences in scores could co-vary with any number of other things, like percent urbanized, the percentage of immigrants, teacher-to-student ratios, and school district spending.”
All of this is true. The 300 SAT point difference between WHITES in mostly Protestant states and Whites in states with a high percentage of Catholics COULD be due to those factors, AND other factors which you didn’t mention.
But it also COULD be due to the presence of Catholics. And when it happens to be true for every state, from state to state, with NO exceptions, then those other factors tend to fade away. Those other factors together explain less than 20% of these differences, and perhaps as little as 10%.
We don’t need any more studies to make these candid observations. We already have ALL the studies we could possibly need. We also know that it’s the five states with the highest percentage of Catholics who have legalized gay marriage, while the 38 mostly Protestant states have passed DOMA laws to OUTLAW them.
You have to be very STUPID to legalize gay marriage in the very wake of the sodomite priest scandal which still may bankrkupt this church. A 300 SAT point gap just isn’t enough to explain such incredible STUPIDITY. Do you also deny that religion is a factor in passing these anti-Christ laws?
This so-called religion is responsible for BOTH factors, plus a ton of others:
<<>>
israeliteknight
12 September 2011
Those “ton of others” factors didn’t post above, so here they are again:
Federal statistics reveal that across the nation, from state to state, there’s a huge difference in social pathology, with murder rates varying 6 fold, abortion rates varying 8 fold, SAT scores varying 228 points, marriage rates varying 72%, and divorce rates varying 21%. The states with the highest percentage of Catholics (i.e., Rhode Island with 59%, and Massachusetts with 43%) do very poorly in all these areas, whereas the states with the least percentage of Catholics (i.e., North Dakota with 22%, Iowa with 17%, and Utah with 8%) are at the opposite end of the spectrum.
Where you would expect Catholic states to have the lowest abortion rates because of opposition to abortion by the Catholic Church, the abortion rates in ALL of these states are the highest in the country, with the rate in New York (38% Catholic) being 8 times higher than the rate in South Dakota (20% Catholic). Where you would expect the marriage rate in Catholic states to be the highest, their rates are actually the lowest, with non-Catholic states like Utah (8.3% Catholics) having a marriage rate 73% higher than Catholic states like New York. With the putative Catholic opposition to divorce, you’d expect to see a clear and distinct difference between states in this area, but relative to the low marriage rates of the predominately Catholic states, there’s no such distinction. As a percent of the number of marriages, divorces in the most Catholic state Rhode Island (with 59% Catholics) are on par with the least Catholic state Utah (with 8% Catholics). And even here, Utah wins because their marriage rate is 48% higher than Rhode Island anyway.
A real unexpected outcome of evaluating these statistics is the much lower murder rates in ALL the least Catholic states relative to ALL the most Catholic states. For decades now, the murder rates in non-Catholic states like Vermont, Iowa, North Dakota, and South Dakota have been lower than 1 per 100,000 population, contrasted to rates greater than 5 in ALL these mainly Catholic states. In 1994, compared to North Dakota, the murder rate in New York was 55 TIMES higher, in Rhode Island was 20 TIMES higher, and in Massachusetts was 17 TIMES higher.
If the abortion rate of the entire nation were equivalent to South Dakota, there would be 1,256,693 fewer abortions every year. Conversely, if it were equivalent to primarily Catholic New York, there would be 944,000 MORE. If the marriage and divorce rates of the entire nation were equivalent to that of Catholic free Tennessee, there would be 832,000 MORE marriages and fewer divorces. Conversely, if it were equivalent to a Catholic state like Massachusetts, there would be 416 thousand FEWER marriages and the divorce rate would INCREASE. If the murder rate in the entire nation were equivalent to North Dakota in 1994, there would be only 560 murders annually, a reduction of 25,520 murders. Conversely, if it were equivalent to a Catholic state like New York, there would be 6,090 MORE, and if it were equivalent to Catholic-influenced Washington, DC, there would be 176,900 MORE.
israeliteknight
12 September 2011
“I already pointed out that Lynn gives standard deviation as 15. So you then change your terms, and say that he is “too generous,” even after you are have listed him as your source. (!) For an IQ of 122 to be six standard deviations higher than a mean of 94, the standard deviation would have to be approximately 4.7. You are thus asserting that hardly any Jews are likely to have IQs above 108 (three standard deviations above 94), & you are also asserting that very few or no Jews have IQs below 80. I guess there are no “slow” people or people with Down’s Syndrome in Israel. Apparently you are the one who doesn’t know what standard deviation is. There are no intelligence distributions like those you claim.”
In all data bases like this there are outliers which must be removed, and it ought to be obvious to you that those with Down’s Syndrome are such outliers.
I’m not quoting Lynn regarding Israel having an IQ of 94: I’m disputing it. Plus, there’s no evidence of a standard deviation difference between Sephardic Jews and Ashkenazi Jews, and the small bit of anecdotal evidence we have is that Sephardic Jews are SMARTER than Ashkenazi Jews. Where he puts Israel’s IQ at 94, the TIMSS study puts it at 86. The PISA math study where Israel scored 442 (17 points lower than Greece and 34 points lower than Azerbaijan), puts it at 85. The IAEP reading score of 439 (a test which was conducted in Hebrew which modern Israelis claim to have invented themselves) is 8 points lower than Turkey (Lynn IQ of 90), puts it at 87. This is an average IQ for Israel of 86. So the distance between “Ashkenazi Jews have an average IQ of 122″ and an average IQ for Israel of 86 is even longer than I thought it was before. Even if we use the standard deviation of 15, what this means is that out of all 13 million Jews in the world, only 3 would have an IQ of 122 [read: would score five standard deviations higher than the mean].
On pg. 385, Exhibit A.4, of the 2007 TIMSs math report we have evidence that the test population of Israel was tampered with, so not even these scores might be true and accurate. Israel’s exclusions exceeded 22%, more than 20 times that of most countries, and up to 50 times that of a number of countries. Israel also didn’t meet the 90% sampling requirement that most other countries DID meet. The only possible explanation is that they threw out the lower scoring students. This alone could have inflated Israel’s score by 20 to 40 points.
Ignoring that for a moment, of the 3,294 Israeli students who took the test (and scored 463 with an SD of 92), NONE of them scored as high as the AVERAGE for Hong Kong. Five scored three standard deviations higher than Israel’s average score, and of course none scored more than four standard deviations higher, a score of 647. However, 167 US students, 1,735 Hong Kong students (half of those who took the test), and 302 Russian students DID score higher than THE top scoring Israeli student.
israeliteknight
12 September 2011
http://timss.bc.edu/timss2007/PDF/TIMSS2007_InternationalMathematicsReport.pdf
What the above very credible and undisputed worldwide study reports is that only 5 out of 3,294 Israelite test takers, or 0.15% of them, scored even close to the AVERAGE student in Hong Kong whose AVERAGE IQ is estimated at 107.
However: IF these scores have been inflated by say 40 points, which would not be at all surprising given Israel’s past close brushes with truths, then their real average TIMSS math score would be 423, putting them in league with Jordan (IQ = 87), Tunisia (84), Lebanon (86), for an average IQ of 85. This would mean that the highest scoring 5 Israeli students scored only 561, and that the gap between the average scores for Israel and Hong Kong is 5.5 standard deviations. This would mean that the top five scoring Israeli students scored 1.4 standard deviations lower than the average student in Hong Kong. This would be an IQ between 96.5 and 100 (depending on whether the standard deviation for IQ’s is defined as 10 points, or 15 points).
Exhibit 2.2, pg. 71, shows that only 19% of Israeli’s reached the high benchmark of 550, compared to 71% in Taipei and Korea, 70% in Singapore, 64% in Hong Kong, 61% in Japan, 35% in Hungary and England, 33% in Russia, 31% in the US and Lithuania, 26% or more in Armenia, the Czech Republic, Turkey, Malta, and Slovenia, and higher than Israel in Australia, Bulgaria, Romania, Sweden, and Scotland, none of which even hints that there’s a bright shining Ashkenzai Jew hiding out somewhere in Israel with an IQ of 100, much less 105, much less 122.
israeliteknight
12 September 2011
Nate asked:
“Oh here’s something I don’t understand. Why would you assume the SD to be 80, if they state it as being 97?”
The standard deviations for mono-cultural nations and races tend to be a half to a third of those of multi-cultural or multi-racial nations. For example, in TIMSS advanced math, the Netherlands has a standard deviation of 46, compared to 106 for the Philippines. Using 80 is a real conservative estimate. The reason for this is that when the bell curves for 2 or 3 (or in the case of the US, 5) different races are averaged together, the standard deviation gets much bigger. It could be that within the White Race in the US, the bell curves for both Catholics and Protestants has a standard deviation similar to the Netherlands, or 46.
If so, then a GRE score for White Protestant men of 649 with a standard deviation of 46 is almost 11 standard deviations higher than a score of 433 for White Catholic men and a standard deviation of 46.
American Black women have a standard deviation of 88 in GRE verbal, yet they are a composite of all 86 Black races of Africa who have not integrated or intermarried with each other over the last 100,000 years, and never will, no matter how much WE do that. Each of these sub-groups could have a standard deviation similar to the Netherlands. The standard deviation of 67 for Hong Kong is made up of two separate racial groups, Mandarin and Cantonese, who each most likely would show a pattern similar to the Netherlands if they were measured separately.
israeliteknight
13 September 2011
“Apparently you are the one who doesn’t know what standard deviation is. There are no intelligence distributions like those you claim.”
The reason Gaussian Distributions or bell curves are so popular and are used so frequently in scientific research is that these theoretical curves come very close to the actual measured data. And almost always when they don’t match the measured data, it’s an error in the measurement, a fraudulent data point (as in the Atlanta cheating scandal), the result of disease or genetic deformity, or some other anomaly.
An example is the World Health Organization, which has spent years studying traffic safety and other issues related to early mortality. And through these statistical analysis, they’ve discovered that Israel’s terrible driving safety record, 240 fatal accidents per 100,000 vehicles, is one of the worst in the world. This makes Israeli roads 123 times more dangerous than roads in San Marino, 35 times more dangerous than Swiss roads, 27 times more dangerous than German roads, and 14 times more dangerous than US roads. They’re even twice as dangerous as roads in Libya, the Congo, and Eriteria, 65% more dangerous than roads in India, and more than 20% more dangerous than roads in Ghana and South Africa. They’re on par with roads in Guinea-Bisau, who Professor Lynn estimates to have an IQ of 63. To their credit, they are one seventh as dangerous as roads in Sao Tome (IQ of 59), and one third as roads in Gambia (IQ of 64). None of the nations with IQ’s greater than 70 come even close to Israel in road deaths. Even roads in the United Arab Emirates, with an IQ of 83, are one fourth as dangerous as those in Israel. Roads in Thailand (IQ of 91) are one fifth as dangerous.
In order to get a perfect linear correlation between IQ and highway safety, IQ’s were adjusted, with the largest downward adjustments being 20 points for Israel (from 94 to 74), 23 points for Egypt (from 83 to 60), and more than 50 points for Niger, Uganda, Sao Tome, and Ethiopia. The largest upper adjustments were 14 points for the Congo, 10 points for South Africa, and 11 points for the United Arab Emirates. No adjustments were made for England and Italy, and 3 point or less adjustments were made for Switzerland, Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Canada, USA, Uruguay, and Kenya.
This is proof positive that regular IQ tests are incapable of measuring the collective national intelligence of countries, AND that Israel’s national intelligence is far below that of Thailand and Saudia Arabia, and much closer to their African neighbors to the south. OR that Israel simply CHEATED on all these tests.
israeliteknight
13 September 2011
http://www.tau.ac.il/~danib/articles/AnotherLessonEng.htm
What’s missing from the following excellent expose of Israeli intelligence (or lack thereof) is that, in addition to the 22.5% exclusion rate, they also did not meet the 90% sampling requirement. If it was as low as 75%, then almost HALF, or 47.5%, of Israelis were excluded from TIMSS. And htis means their scores could have been jackedup 80 points, not just 20-40 points.
Dan Ben-David
Tel-Aviv University
It is most unfortunate that there is no precise Hebrew translation for the expression “they just don’t get it.” Of all the explanations that could possibly explain the recent behavior of the heads of Israeli’s educational system, minister Limor Livnat and director general Ronit Tirosh, this one is the most favorable to them – though there are several others that are probably more accurate.
They gave their first lesson in public integrity during a press conference in which they announced substantial improvements in the achievements of Israeli pupils in the recent TIMSS math and science tests. The second lesson was provided when they reacted to my article (Haaretz, Dec 23, 2003) on their assertions.
As written in the article, the improvement was attained when Israel excluded 22.5% of the population from the sample (among others, the entire unltra-orthodox population was excluded). Ronit Tirosh, in a radio interview with Rafi Reshef: “The doctor did not bother [...] to check if his data is correct. Are his claims correct? Well, they are completely groundless!” Reshef: “Were 22.5% excluded?” Tirosh: “No way. 15% were excluded, and incidentally, I don’t have the exact data.”
So maybe it is time for the exact data to reach the director general of the education ministry before she reaches a microphone again. They can be found on page 352 of the TIMSS 2003 mathematics report. As stated in table A6, Israel excluded 22.5% of the population – compared with an average of 2.8% for all the other countries for whom test results were published.
Professor Ruth Zuzovsky, who heads the TIMSS project in Israel, responded in an Haaretz oped: “There was no difference between 1999 and 2003 in the degree of sample representativeness. [...] In other words, Israel did not ‘exclude’ the ultra-orthodox in order to extract itself from a low ranking and it did not ‘raise the rate of exclusion by 41%’.”
It might be useful for Prof. Zuzovsky to refresh her memory with the help of page 325 in the TIMSS 1999 mathematics report. An exclusion rate of 16% appears only alongside Israel’s name. Outside of the educational system, it is not uncommon to calculate the change from 16 to 22.5 as an increase of 41% in the exclusion rate. Since there was no comparable growth in any of the relevant populations – ultra-orthodox, immigrants, etc. – then what exactly occurred differently with this particular exam? That is the first important problem that arises.
The director general and the professor do not understand what all the fuss is about. As Zuzovsky writes, after all “the desired population of the TIMSS survey are all of the 8th grade students in the regular education, who study the complete official educational program (in math and science).”
But that is exactly the crux of the second major problem. The important issue is not whether the results reflect the chosen sample, but that the sample itself does not reflect Israel’s population. What kind of a response is it that pupils who do not learn the necessary material should not be included in the sample? The essence of the problem is the fact that no one required them to study a national core curriculum (while the impending coalition agreement releasing the ultraorthodox from Dovrat educational reform indicates a thorough lack of governmental internalization of the problem’s seriousness).
It isn’t a coincidence that in lieu of a proper education in the core fields, they lack the proper tools that could ensure economic survival in a modern and competitive labor market, and as a result, too many mature into lives of unemployment and poverty – from which their deletion from the national statistics is still not viewed as a legitimate option.
It is time to stop skirting the main issue and to quit diverting the debate from the heart of the problem. Until proven otherwise by a truly representative sample that includes all of the children of Israel, it is a fact that the education provided in this country is the absolute worst in the western world and no statistical manipulations can change this. The fact that the percentage of new Israeli-born conscripts into the army knowing how to read at a sufficient level fell from 60% fifteen years ago to just 32% in 2003 should have turned on every red light in the education ministry as to the reliability of the abnormal TIMSS 2003 results from that same year.
It isn’t clear whether the desire to boast about the misleading achievements reflects the degree of non-professionalism or the degree of non-integrity within the ministry of education. Neither case is a cause for celebration – and what is certain is that only our children will pay the price of these two phenomenon. The primary person responsible for the misrepresentation of the results is not Prof. Zuzovsky but the minister of education, Limor Livnat. It is high time that she personally face the public to try and clarify the unexplainable.
There is an important lesson here for the Dovrat committee regarding the need for putting as much distance as possible between the planned new authority for measurement and evaluation, which is a central part of the proposed educational reform, and the interested parties in the education ministry.
israeliteknight
14 September 2011
Many have accepted Lynn’s argument that there’s at least one standard deviation of separation between Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews. What many of us didn’t know before is that the phrase “Orthodox Jews” is a veiled reference to Sephardic Jews, AND that this HALF of Israeli Jews are excluded from taking tests like TIMSS. So Israel’s REAL TIMSS score is made up of two parts: Ashkenazi Jews who score 463, and Sephardic Jews, Orthodox Jews, and the 2% who are Christians (down from 42% in 1929) who score 364. And this means that Israel’s REAL TIMSS score is 413, AT BEST. This puts Israel in league with Iran (IQ of 84), Bahrain (IQ of 83), Indonesia (IQ of 89), and Syria (IQ of 87). Note that Palestinians were scored separately in this round of testing, and thus can’t be blamed for dragging down Israel’s score.
Israel is also unique as one of the few countries who report that their girls score higher than their boys. Conversely, boys in countries which score almost two standard deviations higher, like Hong Kong, score 21 points higher than girls. Is it that the lower a country scores, the smaller is the amount by which boys score higher than girls? Or is a bit more sinister? Could it be that feminized countries like Israel, who report girls score HIGHER than boys, simply can’t STAND to let simple truths past their iips? This is yet another reason not to trust Israel to adequately monitor their own education system, much less to report their scores accurately and honestly. Their female education minister, Limor Livnat, has yet to answer Dan Ben-David’s question, which is why did you say “There was no difference between 1999 and 2003 in the degree of sample representativeness. [...] In other words, Israel did not ‘exclude’ the ultra-orthodox in order to extract itself from a low ranking and it did not ‘raise the rate of exclusion by 41%’.” when this is EXACTLY what TIMSS reported? Do we have another Beverly Hall Class Scandal in the works?
Limor Livnat LOVES lies. How poetic.
israeliteknight
14 September 2011
So where does that leave us with that mythical Ashkenazi Jew with an IQ of 122, or in particular, that entire flock, bevy, race, ethnic group, or sheep, of them? At least .5 SD further away from utterly impossible?
Using the standard deviation provided by TIMSS, and assuming the impossible at this outter extreme of the data, a typical Gaussian Distribution, we see that the gap between Hong Kong with an IQ of 107 and Israel with a score of 413 is now a whopping six standard deviations. And that means that even if there were 100 million Jews on the planet (an order of magnitude more than there actually are), that not even ONE would score 107.
Of the 3,294 Israeli students who DID take TIMSS, only 5 scored 551, and that’s a score two standard deviations lower than Hong Kong. And THAT puts the IQ of the top five scoring Israeli students at an IQ of 92 (using 15 points as the standard deviation for IQ’s). The amount of territory between an IQ of 92 and an IQ of 122 as the AVERAGE for Ashkenazi Jews is something you could park the Starship Enterprise in–along with the entire galaxy it travels in, plus a few more.
Northstar
15 September 2011
Israeliteknight writes: “With the putative Catholic opposition to divorce, you’d expect to see a clear and distinct difference between states in this area, but relative to the low marriage rates of the predominately Catholic states, there’s no such distinction.”
FYI — divorce rates from 2009. (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0923080.html) The following six states have the lowest divorce rates in the nation (number listed per 1,000). Five of the six are in the top-ten US states in percentage of Catholics.
Massachusetts 1.8
Pennsylvania 2.3
New York 2.5
Iowa 2.5
Illinois 2.6
New Jersey 2.8
The top-six states with the highest divorce rates (per thousand):
Nevada 6.6
Arkansas 5.6
Wyoming 5.2
Idaho 5.0
West Virginia 5.0
Oklahoma 4.6
None of the above six are in the top ten states in terms of percentage of Catholics (http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_romcath.html). In fact, they are among the least Catholic states in the nation. These sourced data provide the “distinction” that you assert doesn’t exist, and are contradictory evidence against your claim of immoral Catholics vs. moral and upright Protestants.
As for your assumption that math SAT differences between RI and IA can be attributed to differences in percentage of Catholics — you cannot validly make that claim without actual population or sample data, of test scores as a function of religion, to back you up. To use your own reasoning, one can compare mean SAT math scores from Newton, Massachusetts, which is a suburb of Boston comprised mostly of Catholics and Jews (one third Jewish), to scores from white Protestant states such as West Virginia, Kansas, Iowa or North Dakota. The Newton students perform at a superior level. The mean SAT math score for Newton South High is 617; the mean SAT math score for Newton North High is 598. Newton South surpasses all of the SAT math means for individual US states. Newton North is surpassed only by the top-three scoring states: Iowa, Wisconsin and Michigan. Wisconsin is in the top-ten states for percentages of Catholics, and Michigan is in the top-ten states for raw numbers of Catholics. Thus, your claim that Protestantism is the co-varying element that is relevant in giving Iowa its edge in SAT math ability is shown as bogus, when one uses similar evidence to your own. And I would like to point out that your fondness for referencing Iowa as a beacon is strange, considering that it is a state that allows legal gay marriage, which you apparently detest.
Massachusetts high school SAT data link: http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/articles/2006/08/29/2006_sat_scores_for_massachusetts/
Here is another fact about Newton, “Based on statistics reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Newton was the nation’s safest city during 1999, 2004 and 2005, and the fourth safest city in the nation in 2006 and in 2008. The designation is based on crime statistics in six categories: murder, rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, and auto theft” (from wikipedia). I am not asserting that it has low crime BECAUSE it is Catholic and Jewish, but to counter your claims that Catholic areas are prone to crime.
You write, “So the distance between ‘Ashkenazi Jews have an average IQ of 122’ and an average IQ for Israel of 86 is even longer than I thought it was before. Even if we use the standard deviation of 15, what this means is that out of all 13 million Jews in the world, only 3 would have an IQ of 122 [read: would score five standard deviations higher than the mean].”
If you are accepting a standard deviation of 15, clearly you can see that a 122 IQ is not five standard deviations above 86. It is not even three standard deviations above 86, but rather 2.57. Someone had posted earlier on this forum that Einstein had an IQ of 122 and you countered that it wasn’t possible. An IQ of 122 out of a population with a mean of 86, and an S.D. of 15 is high, but not that rare. 2.57 standard deviations above the mean occurs approximately in one in every 200 people.
I don’t accept 86 as the mean IQ for Ashkenazi Jews, but for sake of argument, let’s say it’s true. Given a mean of 86 and SD of 15, an Ashkenazi Jew could have an IQ of 140, 3.6 SDs above the mean, which occurs approximately one in five thousand. Someone profoundly mentally retarded could have an IQ in the low 20s, more than four SDs below 86. If you accept outliers of more than 3 SDs, in the lower ranges, then why do you assert in this forum that they are not possible in the upper ranges? 122 is not an outlier, even.
Northstar
15 September 2011
Israeliteknight – Do you not consider that people who post here are capable of checking the veracity of your statistics? If you are going to fib, you may want to do it in a less grandiose way. You assert, “In 1994, compared to North Dakota, the murder rate in New York was 55 TIMES higher, in Rhode Island was 20 TIMES higher, and in Massachusetts was 17 TIMES higher.” Those numbers are absurd. In 2009, the murder rate for New York State was 4.0 per 100,000, and the rate for North Dakota was 1.5 per 100,000. Thus, New York had a rate that was 2.7 times higher than ND, hardly 55 times as high! And if you are going to use the 2.7X difference as your claim for the superiority of white Protestantism, then you should consider that Kansas had a murder rate of 4.2, higher than New York’s. The rates in highly Catholic Massachusetts and Rhode Island were 2.6 and 2.9, respectively. (data from http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state#MRord)
israeliteknight
16 September 2011
“Israeliteknight – Do you not consider that people who post here are capable of checking the veracity of your statistics? If you are going to fib, you may want to do it in a less grandiose way. You assert, “In 1994, compared to North Dakota, the murder rate in New York was 55 TIMES higher, in Rhode Island was 20 TIMES higher, and in Massachusetts was 17 TIMES higher.” Those numbers are absurd. In 2009, the murder rate for New York State was 4.0 per 100,000, and the rate for North Dakota was 1.5 per 100,000. Thus, New York had a rate that was 2.7 times higher than ND, hardly 55 times as high! And if you are going to use the 2.7X difference as your claim for the superiority of white Protestantism, then you should consider that Kansas had a murder rate of 4.2, higher than New York’s. The rates in highly Catholic Massachusetts and Rhode Island were 2.6 and 2.9, respectively. (data from http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state#MRord)”
VERY good. Do I think that anyone on this forum can read a table? Considering you couldn’t even follow a link to indeed.com, and that you seem to identify very closely with the Livmor Livnat eugenicist tribe (the one who you now know has an IQ lower than 86), you are the LAST person on this forum I would have expected to have been able to do so.
You surely did not disappoint me.
http://fathersmanifesto.net/guncontrolnorthdakota.htm
http://fathersmanifesto.net/murderstates1994statabst.htm
It’s almost hard to grasp just what part of this could you not possibly have understood? How could you trip yourself up over this simple statement? Are you just trying to prove my point?
The second url above is a table from the 1994 United States Statistical Abstract. And guess what? Voila. It says exactly what you quoted above. The murder rate in NY WAS 55 times as high. AND the murder rate in Massachusetts WAS 17 times higher. And the murder rate for Rhode Island WAS 20 times higher.
In ADDITION to that, the murder rate in the District of Columbia WAS THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY TIMES HIGHER (350X). And at 70 murders per 100k, this is not even a record high, not even for DC. In 1992, when there were even more Catholics in DC, the murder rate was 78.5, which is THREE HUNDRED AND NINETY TWO TIMES (392x) higher. In 2007, the murder rate in almost exclusively Catholic New Orleans was 94.7, FOUR HUNDRED AND SEVENTY THREE (473X) times higher.
http://fathersmanifesto.net/murder.htm
North Dakota reported that they had a murder rate of 0.3 in 2008. But when the US Statistical Abstract reported the 2008 rate, they claimed it was 1.0. However, an Excel spreadsheet downloaded from the Census Bureau site, even though it showed the figure of 1.0 for NOrth Dakota, when the decimal points are selected for two decimal points (it’s default was no decimal points), the figure was actually 0.9, rounded up to 1:
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/law_enforcement_courts_prisons.html table 302
So by this process, the liars now in charge of government take an 0.2 murder rate and increase it five fold to 1.0 in order to obscure or conceal their role in the destruction of our society. And that makes the murder rate in DC to appear to be “only” 31 TIMES higher than North Dakota (AND Saudi Arabia, AND Singapore), rather than the 168 TIMES that it actually is. Not even the most Catholic country on the planet with a murder rate of 23.8, Brazil, has a murder rate THAT high.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Brazil#Homicide_rates
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/country/sc3.html
What do North Dakota, Sweden, Germany, Japan, Bahrain, Egypt, Switzerland, Algeria, Norway, Oman, Lebanon, Slovenia, Brunei, Burkina Faso, Austria, Morocco, Singapore, Iceland, and Palau all have in common? They are the least Catholic nations in the world, and they each have had murder rates almost as low as North Dakota in 1994. What do Poland, Equatorial Guinea, Cape Verde, Paraguay, Portugal,Ecuador, Argentina, Venezuela, Peru, Mexico, Colombia, Bolivia, and Brazil all have in common? They are the MOST Catholic nations on the planet, and they EACH have CONSISTENTLY had murder rates which exceed ONE HUNDRED AND TEN TIMES (110X) that of these non-Catholic countries.
israeliteknight
16 September 2011
“I don’t accept 86 as the mean IQ for Ashkenazi Jews, but for sake of argument, let’s say it’s true. Given a mean of 86 and SD of 15, an Ashkenazi Jew could have an IQ of 140, 3.6 SDs above the mean, which occurs approximately one in five thousand. Someone profoundly mentally retarded could have an IQ in the low 20s, more than four SDs below 86. If you accept outliers of more than 3 SDs, in the lower ranges, then why do you assert in this forum that they are not possible in the upper ranges? 122 is not an outlier, even.”
You’re not calculating this correctly. Even if we accept Lynn’s data carte blanche (that is, after correcting for the half of Israelis who Livnat admits in a backhanded way were EXCLUDED), what this says is that two thirds of Israelis have an IQ between 79 and 94, which is the one standard deviation. Two standard deviations in either direction puts it between 71 and 101. The third standard deviation UP is 109. Fourth is 116. And five standard deviations UP is 124. NONE of all 4 million Israelis would score this high, and if you included ALL 13 million Jews in the entire world (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Orthodox, etc.) then only THREE would score this high.
BUT: as noted above, the TIMSS math study shows an entirely different pattern. Let me put this another way. Two thirds of the 3,470 Hong Kong students who took this test (with an average IQ of 107) scored between 574 and 641, which is ONE standard deviation. 79 of them scored lower than 540, which is TWO standard deviations out. 4 of them scored lower than 507, which is THREE standard deviations out. NONE of them scored lower than 473, which is four standard deviations out. And of course none of them scored lower than 440, which is FIVE standard deviations out. Israel’s score of 413 is just a hair shy of SIX standard deviations lower than Hong Kong’s average.
What this means is that in order for ONE Chinese student from Hong Kong to score 407 (AVERAGE for Israel), he would have to score SIX standard deviations lower than the mean, and the odds of that are LESS than one in a BILLION.
What you think is 3.6 SDs above Israel’s mean is actually 7.2 SDs. And the odds of having an IQ SIX standard deviations higher than the mean are LESS than one in a BILLION.
iow, it’s far more likely that you understood one word of the above thaN it is that ONE Israeli would score as high as four standard deviations lower than Hong Kong.
Did you know that lil’ ole’ Norway with half your population has gotten more than 400 Olympic Gold Medals, while the only Israeli to ever get a Gold Medal was an Arab?
And that all he did was sit on his butt (er, I mean, for sailing). Not exactly a high energy sport which requires endurance, speed, strength, and, er, intelligence..
Northstar
16 September 2011
Israeliteknight: Your understanding of statistics is off. How a z-score is calculated: subtract from the mean (μ) a given score (X), then divide that score that by the standard deviation (σ). 122-86/15 gives a z-score of 2.4, which places the score at 99.18% of the population.
A standard normal distribution with a mean of 86 and a standard deviation of 15, places an IQ of 101 one standard deviation higher than the mean. One standard deviation above a mean is higher than approximately 84% of the population. Two standard deviations above 86 is 116, which, according to z-score tables, places it at 97.7% of the population. Three standard deviations above 86 is 131, which is at 99.87 % of the population. For you to assert that no Jew could ever score 122 on an IQ test is absurd. You need to brush up on your elementary statistics. Buy a book or go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_score & http://www.utdallas.edu/dept/abp/zscoretable.pdf
israeliteknight
16 September 2011
The plot thickens.
This is from the English version of Israel’s own study of their test scores:
http://fathersmanifesto.net/israeleducation%20English%202009.pdf
“PIRLS (see Table 6)
The first international comparative test in which Israeli students are involved is the PIRLS – Progress in International Reading Literacy Study. This is carried out at elementary schools in fourth grade, in other words at the age of 10. The test is administered by the International Association for the Evaluation of Educational Achievement (IEA). The test was last run in 2006, with 45 countries and regions participating. In Israel, the sample did not include students in special education or students in the ultra-Orthodox schools. A total of 3,908 students and 149 schools in Israel took part in this test.”
So not even Israel’s own report on test scores agrees with Limor’s claim that Orthodox Jews are excluded from their tests. This report also shows that Lynn et. al. was very generous when he claimed that Ashkenazi Jews score only one deviation higher than Sephardic Jews–the gap from the highest scoring Israelis to the lowest scoring is 91 points, which is closer to two standard deviations. This moves the increase in the gap between the mythical Ashkenazi Jew with an IQ of 122 and the AVERAGE for ALL Israelis from a half deviation to a FULL standard deviation. And this means that, if the population of Israel was as equally represented as the US population, or the Norwegian population, the absolutely highest scoring 5 Israelis would have scored 509. And this means that the lowest scoring 4 Chinese students in Hong Kong would have scored FOUR standard deviations higher than the average for ALL Israelis.
An IQ of 122 is two standard deviations above Hong Kong. Add ‘em up. The lowest scoring Chinese students scored 4 standard deviations higher than the Israeli average IF all Israelis had been represented, PLUS they scored three standard deviations lower than Hong Kong’s mean, PLUS this is an IQ two standard deviations lower than an IQ of 122, for a grand total of NINE standard deviations between the mythical Ashkenazi Jew with an IQ of 122 and Israel.
Where’s the beef. All we see is hot air, and a WHOLE lot of manipulation of the data which is now a PERMANENT historical RECORD.
Northstar
18 September 2011
Isrealiteknight – Your link to this is invalid: http://fathersmanifesto.net/murderstates1994statabst.htm
You apparently did not follow any of the LEGITIMATE links that I have provided in several posts, which give VALID data. You have no valid data to back up most of your charts, stats and assertions. Your statistics about murder rates of certain states being twenty and fifty times rates of other states are fabricated. I earlier provided a link to US murder-rate data from 1996-2009 (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state#MRord, source — FBI Uniform Crime Report), and there are no multiples of rates between states that go beyond twelve.
You have taken over this blog page with your made-up statistics and ridiculous assertions. You willfully ignore the correct definitions and factual methods of calculating of z-scores and standard deviation.
Did you graduate from high school? Do you have a college degree of any kind? If so, in what discipline?
israeliteknight
19 September 2011
“Isrealiteknight – Your link to this is invalid: http://fathersmanifesto.net/murderstates1994statabst.htm”
Try the following link:
http://fathersmanifesto.net/murderstates1994.htm
“You apparently did not follow any of the LEGITIMATE links that I have provided in several posts, which give VALID data. You have no valid data to back up most of your charts, stats and assertions. Your statistics about murder rates of certain states being twenty and fifty times rates of other states are fabricated. I earlier provided a link to US murder-rate data from 1996-2009 (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state#MRord, source — FBI Uniform Crime Report), and there are no multiples of rates between states that go beyond twelve.”
No, I followed that link, and it tells me nothing. I’ve already done a statistical analysis of the link between homicide rates and capital punishment, both by state and by country, and found there to be no significant correlation. I still support capital punishment, not because the data suggests it might reduce crime [which it doesn't], but because of our insane cost of imprisoning people with no hope of salvation.
Since you didn’t see that data from the US Statistical Abstract, let me explain it to you, again. What it shows is that the murder rate in North Dakota in 1994 was 0.2 per 100,000 population, compared to 70 in DC (350 TIMES higher), 11.6 in Maryland (58 TIMES higher), 11.1 in New York (55 TIMES higher). Also, the murder rate in DC just the year before was 78.5 (393 TIMES higher), it was 94.7 in New Orleans in 2007 (474 TIMES higher), and 57 in Detroit in 1993 (285 TIMES higher).
Now before you dismiss this as an outlier, note that in 2008, North Dakota reported its own murder rate a 0.3, which got “translated” to the Uniform Crime Report as “0.9), which got rounded off to 1, a little sleight of hand which was not accidental and does a great disservice to any accurate analysis.
Does this sound kinda like how Limor Livnat rounds off Israeli education data to exclude more than HALF of the Israeli population from national studies, and then publicly denies it, and then gets PROMOTED for it? Here’s a bit more for you from one of Israel’s own reports:
“By the beginning of the 1990s, just 46% of local authorities had implemented the reform and set up junior high schools; and only 56% of Jewish students and 46% of their Arab peers were studying at junior high schools (Gaziel, 1994).1″
These students aren’t even included in Israel’s 24% exclusion rate because they were never even included in the first place.
The other reason you should not reject this as a spurious or irrelevant data point (and instead should view it as your gold standard) is that North Dakota is not the only place with such low crime rates, and I’ve had the pleasure of having grown up in some of the safer places on the planet (in addition to getting mugged in my own nation’s capitol, twice). If the crimes committed by American Blacks in Japan were excluded, you’d find that the murder rate for Japanese is even lower than 0.2. It’s excactly the murder rate reported by the megalopolous Singapore, which is twice as densely populated as DC, but still manages to maintain a murder rate 1/350TH that of our nation’s capitol. Many Muslim nations, including Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Algeria, Oman, and Morocco, have consistently reported even lower crime rates than North Dakota. Up until very recently, the Republic of Ireland had experienced low crime rates like this for millennia.
Why should we accept high and increasing crime rates as just part of our culture? Why should we allow sources like your above reference to deflect our attention from the FACT that FOUR of the Murder Capitals of the World have consistently been IN our own country? Even if you believe the latest data for DC, a murder rate of “only” 24 per 100,000, the simple FACT is that this is still 120 TIMES higher than the gold standard.
“You have taken over this blog page with your made-up statistics and ridiculous assertions. You willfully ignore the correct definitions and factual methods of calculating of z-scores and standard deviation.”
You have yet to prove even one single point to be in error, and instead stumble all over the place avoiding the SIMPLE truths you can learn by looking at the US Statistical Abstract. But if you ever DO find an ACTUAL error, point it out on this forum, a correction will be made, your name will be emblazoned on the web site for eternity as being the FIRST to find an error, you will win a Dewey Button, and a lobster dinner in Puerto Nuevo.
Until then, you’re still just a member of Limor’s eugenicist tribe who couldn’t even follow a link to indeed.com or find a simple statistic in our ponderous and widely published US Statistical Abstract.
israeliteknight
20 September 2011
“A standard normal distribution with a mean of 86 and a standard deviation of 15, places an IQ of 101 one standard deviation higher than the mean. One standard deviation above a mean is higher than approximately 84% of the population. Two standard deviations above 86 is 116, which, according to z-score tables, places it at 97.7% of the population. Three standard deviations above 86 is 131, which is at 99.87 % of the population. For you to assert that no Jew could ever score 122 on an IQ test is absurd. You need to brush up on your elementary statistics. Buy a book or go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_score & http://www.utdallas.edu/dept/abp/zscoretable.pdf”
Wikipedia is the LAST place on the planet where you’ll ever learn about probability and statistics, even IF you were in an intellectual class which is capable of learning it, which we now know is something your euginist tribe is incapable of. And now even in our once fine universitites what they teach about it is DEAD WRONG, which is the only way to explain why American 12th graders scored lower than if they’d just guessed on ALL the probabilities and statistics questions.
BUT THE PLOT THICKENS. AGAIN!
israeleducation English 2009.pdf
“By the beginning of the 1990s, just 46% of local authorities had implemented the reform and set up junior high schools; and only 56% of Jewish students and 46% of their Arab peers were studying at junior high schools (Gaziel, 1994)”
What this means is that 46% of Jews in Israel were not even enrolled in school where they could be counted in the 22.8% exclusion rate of of Israel (50 times higher than many countries), NOR in the unusually low coverage rate of Israeli schools as evidenced by the following footnote on Israel’s TIMSS score.
Of the 56% of Jews (excluding Arabs) who WERE enrolled in Israeli schools, 22.8% of them were excluded, and another 23% were not tested because Israel took the risk of openly and publicly declaring that these lower scoring schools would not be counted in estimating Israel’s TIMSS math score (which at 463 STILL was lower than many third world nations, like Malaysia with an IQ of 92, but who scored 11 points higher).
Who are the remaining (56% – 22.8% – 23% = 10.2%) 10.2% of Israeli Jews and how do they stack up with other Israeli Jews and Palestinians?
Israel’s own internal testing shows that a significant percentage of Israeli Jews scored 20 points lower than the Palestinians they detest and disdain and insult so much (460 vs. 487), and that the highest scoring group (like 10.2% of them) score 543 on this INTERNAL Meizav test, the same group who scores 463 in TIMSS math. The 83 point gap across three different groups of Israeli Jews with a standard deviation of 70 is a gap of 2.4 standard deviations.
It’s so nice to finally see the internal workings of a eugenicist tribe which managed to get away with the LIE that their *average* IQ was 122 for so long, isnt’ it?
israeliteknight
20 September 2011
Now I’m not at all surprised to find a statistic which shows that American Blacks earn 50% more than American Jews. After all, teachers in Israel earn about $1,000 per month. This makes them some of the lowest scoring teachers in the world, earning less than teachers in the Philippines, Portugal, Thailand, Kuwait, and Peru. Israeli teachers earn only slightly more than teachers in Brazil and Romania, so why should they earn more here?
http://www.worldsalaries.org/teacher.shtml
But again, official statistics from Israel are off by 100%, suggesting that Israeli teachers are paid twice as much as the above database reports.
which is correct? Why is it that Israel always comes off as the gang [read: eugenicist tribe] which can’t shoot straight? Is there ANY statistic or ANY “fact” from Israel which can be trusted? Do people with such low IQ’s EVER tell a truth?
Northstar
21 September 2011
Isrealite’s dribble: “Wikipedia is the LAST place on the planet where you’ll ever learn about probability and statistics, even if you were in an intellectual class which is capable of learning it, which we now know is something your euginist tribe is incapable of.”
I provided a wikipedia link on z-scores, but I could have provided a million other webpages that all say the same thing. The way that standard deviation is calculated is not up for debate. It’s obvious from your voluminous comments that you do not know how standard deviation is calculated and applied.
israeliteknight
21 September 2011
“Israeliteknight writes: ‘With the putative Catholic opposition to divorce, you’d expect to see a clear and distinct difference between states in this area, but relative to the low marriage rates of the predominately Catholic states, there’s no such distinction.’
FYI — divorce rates from 2009. (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0923080.html) The following six states have the lowest divorce rates in the nation (number listed per 1,000). Five of the six are in the top-ten US states in percentage of Catholics.
Massachusetts 1.8
Pennsylvania 2.3
New York 2.5
Iowa 2.5
Illinois 2.6
New Jersey 2.8
The top-six states with the highest divorce rates (per thousand):
Nevada 6.6
Arkansas 5.6
Wyoming 5.2
Idaho 5.0
West Virginia 5.0
Oklahoma 4.6
None of the above six are in the top ten states in terms of percentage of Catholics (http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_romcath.html). In fact, they are among the least Catholic states in the nation. These sourced data provide the “distinction” that you assert doesn’t exist, and are contradictory evidence against your claim of immoral Catholics vs. moral and upright Protestants”
Again, the point went whizing right over your head (or lack thereof), didn’t it?
And the POINT is that, even though the raw divorce rate might appear to be higher in some Protestant states than in some Catholic states, when the original MARRIAGE rate is taken into account, “Divorce as Percent of Marriage” is considerably higher in almost ALL the Catholic states than it is in Protestant states. And this is because there’s almost a two fold difference in marriages per 1,000 people, with 8.3 for South Dakota at the high end and 4.7 for Pennyslvania at the low end. Even though it might appear that Pennsylvania at 2.3 has a low divorce rate relative to South Dakota at 3.2, “Divorce as Percent of Marriage” in Pennsylvania is 49.8%, which is 1.35X higher than the 36.9% in South Dakota. Divorce as a percent of marriage in New Jersey is 57.6%, which is 1.57X higher than that of North Dakota at 36.6%.
Would you say that this low marriage rate in Catholic states might be an even bigger social problem than their high divorce rate relative to their marriage rate?
israeliteknight
22 September 2011
“I provided a wikipedia link on z-scores, but I could have provided a million other webpages that all say the same thing. The way that standard deviation is calculated is not up for debate. It’s obvious from your voluminous comments that you do not know how standard deviation is calculated and applied.”
You have yet to successfully dispute even one point made above, one point on the Christian Party web site, and think that an obtuse reference to grossly liberally biased Wikipedia (and their ERRONEOUS definitions and conclusions, particularly those about Ashkenazi Jews having an AVERAGE IQ of 122), and a dime, will buy you a cup of coffee? There are far too many errors on Wikipedia to trust anything they say about z-scores or standard deviations or Gaussian Distribution (or solving for millions of second order partial differential equations which take down mainframe computers for three days). The simple math you’ve already proven you’re incapable of grasping is simple addition and multiplication, though.
Three different times you claimed that I was lying, when all I did was quote the US Statistical Abstract, which reports that the murder rate in DC was 350 TIMES higher than in North Dakota, and three different times I did the simple math for you which has nothing to do with any bs Wikipedia might publish. Do you finally agree that this is correct?
I’ve worked a lot with far more complex data than this and can smell when the data has been tampered with. I’ve known for several years that the NCES is manipulating the NAEP data, and have warned them about it. Their response has been denial, just as Limor Livnat denies what her very own data says about Israel manipulating their data [read: excluding up to 90% of JEWS from Israel's already miserably low score]. Now that Governor Deal of Georgia has exposed the TRUTH about how Blacks in Atlanta (and many other American schools) have been LYING about their improving test scores, and relayed that information to the NCES, perhaps this time they will pay more attention to it (or maybe even stop LYING with statistics)?
But now with the internet, LYING with statistics discredits the LIARS for eternity, just as Beverly Hall and Limor Livnat have been discredited FOREVER.
israeliteknight
25 September 2011
It should come as no surprise to anyone that the higher a country’s IQ, the higher the average GDP per capita, and that the higher the GDP per capita, the higher will be teacher’s salaries. There are of course other variables which would prevent this from being a linear relationship, such as the extremely high cost of US education relative to its very poor performance in education outcome.
In TIMSS advanced math in 1995, Table 5.2 C_Full.pdf, http://fathersmanifesto.net/C_full.pdf our 90th percentile scored 383, and the mean achievement of our top ten percent was 485. Nobody’s top ten percent scored lower than this. The 90th percentile in France scored 612, which is 175 points higher than ours (and their TCI was 20%, vs. our meager 14%). Switzerland’s 90th percentile scored 100 points higher and their TCI was exactly equivalent to ours (14%). Even Italy with an equivalent TCI scored higher than us (by 49 points). The TCI in Austria was more than double ours (at 33)%, but they scored 104 points higher than us. Denmark had a TCI of 21% and scored 143 points higher than us.
On top of that, to add insult to injury, we were one of the few countires who didn’t even satisfy the guidelines for sample participation rates. We did not participate in 2008, but based on this miserable past performance (a score 49 points lower than Italy’s 90th percentile, 432 vs. 383), Our 90th percentile would NOW be LUCKY to score only 69 points lower, a score of 499.
Compare this to pg. 426, Exhibit C.1 In advanced math in TIMSS 2008 http://fathersmanifesto.net/TA08_International_Report.pdf , where the 90th percentile in Iran scored 629, which is 138 points higher than their average of 491, 176 points higher than Italy’s average of 453 (who scored 50 points higher than Israel at the 8th grade level), and at BEST, 130 points higher than where we most likely would have scored. The 90th percentile in Russia scored 677, which is 116 points higher than their average of 561, and 178 points higher than us. The 90th percentile in Italy scored 568, which is 115 points higher than their average of 453. The 90th percentile in Armenia scored 562, which is 134 points higher than their average of 428, and 63 points higher than us.
A straight line approximation between Germany at the high end of education spending and of IQ, and Sao Tome at the other end of the scale, indicates that a country (like Israel) which pays it’s teachers a mere $1,092 per month is in the range of countries which Professor Lynn estimates to have an IQ of 72.
What this means is that the way the free enterprise system around the world separates the wheat from the chaff (automatically pays for better performance, and punishes for poor performance), and its tighter standard deviations, are a far better and more accurate way to measure the productivity of countries than things like IQ tests which are not at all a close approxiation (which they ought to be).
israeliteknight
26 September 2011
indeed.com airline pilots and doctors, by country
With rare exceptions, the ability of the free enterprise system to detect and reward excellent performance, and to wean out poor performance, is reflected in the following salaries by profession from indeed.com. Some of those rare exceptions that would not fit this chart are when the government makes political appointments of idiots and pays them orders of magnitude more than they could ever earn in real life [read: could possibly be worth], like Beverly Hall, Jo Boaler, and Limor Livnat:
Pilots’s annual salaries
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=airline+pilots&l1=&tm=1
Airline pilots $131,000
American pilot $78,000
USA pilot $77,000
German pilot $248,000
England pilot $82,000
UK pilot $64,000
English pilot $61,000
French pilot $80,000
China pilot $83,000
Israeli pilot no data
Italian pilot $88,000
Indian pilot $74,000
Jewish pilot $48,000
Polish pilot $46,000
Russian pilot $70,000
Swiss pilot $64,000
Spanish pilot $67,000
Kenyan pilot $40,000
African pilot $69,000
Korean pilot $50,000
Japanese pilot $52,000
Vietnamese pilot $25,000
Taiwan pilot $80,000
Doctors’ annual salaries
England $111,000
Asian $100,000
India $84,000
Hispanic $84,000
Doctor $83,000
Man $83,000
Germany $80,000
Mexican $80,000
Black $69,000
French $51,000
Vietnamese $47,000
Polish $36,000
Jewish $27,000
Woman $24,000
This underscores the undesirability of Jewish doctors and Jewish pilots by separating them from German pilots by 40 standard deviations and from doctors in England by 31 standard deviations. It’s consistent with how Israel underpays its own teachers (34 standard deviations lower than we pay our teachers). It’s also consistent with the following:
http://fathersmanifesto.net/IQ and SAT vs Income, Race, and Gender.htm
Northstar
26 September 2011
Isrealiteknight, once more — I am going to explain how you calculate a z score. You subtract the data mean from the data point x, and then divide it by the standard deviation. Simple formula z= x-μ/σ
You can find that formula in any elementary statistics book. You are not calculating correctly in any of your statements about standard deviation on this blog.
Now you can go back your pastime of quoting a want-ads site to give proof to your assertion that Hispanics have an average income of $60,000/yr in the US, whereas Jews have an average income of $40,000. You never answered my question — do you have a college degree?
israeliteknight
27 September 2011
“Isrealiteknight, once more — I am going to explain how you calculate a z score. You subtract the data mean from the data point x, and then divide it by the standard deviation. Simple formula z= x-μ/σ
You can find that formula in any elementary statistics book. You are not calculating correctly in any of your statements about standard deviation on this blog.
Now you can go back your pastime of quoting a want-ads site to give proof to your assertion that Hispanics have an average income of $60,000/yr in the US, whereas Jews have an average income of $40,000. You never answered my question — do you have a college degree?”
Northstar, do your own research. I did post the answers to many of your questions, but it appears that the moderators have not yet approved it. Go to indeed.com yourself and tell us exactly how “a want-ads site” showing Israeli educators’ salaries to be thirty standard deviations lower than American teachers, Jewish doctors’ salaries to be 20 standard deviations lower than doctors in England, and Jewish pilots’ salaries to be more than 30 standard deviations lower than German pilots, is even one iota less credible than internal Israeli statistics:
http://fathersmanifesto.net/iqashkenazijews.htm
btw, the only reason these Israeli statistics from this “a want-ads site” might be questionable is that they cite known and proven LIARS like Limor Livnat (the gang which can’t even shoot straight, which denies that Sephardic Jews are excluded from TIMSS even though they ADMIT that 90% of JEWS in Israel are EXCLUDED) as their source.
Why don’t you tell US what YOUR qualifications are? You don’t even seem to be able to follow a url, read the US Statistical Abstract correctly, much less grasp the first thing about standard deviations!
Whatever you CLAIM your qualifications are doesn’t even begin to compensate for your colossal errors thus far.
israeliteknight
27 September 2011
What indeed.com indicates is that if you’re a Jew, you earn 15% more than if you’re just Jewish, 7% more than if you’re a Rabbi, and 15% more than if you’re a journalist (who in this country now are mostly Jews or Jewish). But if you’re Black, you earn 57% more than if you’re just Jewish; an Indian, 45% more; White Hispanic, 55% more; White, 78% more; a web designer, physicist, or Ph.D, more than twice as much; and a speaker of Pashto, almost five times more. If you’re a Jewish pilot, you earn 20% more than if you’re just Jewish, but if you’re a Jewish doctor, you earn 33% LESS.
If you’re a Hispanic, you earn 3% more than if you’re an Indian, 7% more than if you’re Puerto Rican (and you score 21 points higher in SAT math, 466 vs. 445), 20% more than if you’re a Mexican, (and you score 24 points higher in SAT math, 466 vs. 442), 40% more than if you’re a Catholic or a Rabbi, and 50% more than if you’re Jewish. But you also earn 3% less than if you’re a white Hispanic, 18% less than if you’re a White (and score 67 SAT math points lower), 43% less than if you’re a web designer or Ph.D., and less than one third of what you would earn if you spoke Pashto.
israeliteknight
27 September 2011
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Mexican&l1=
Speaks Pashto $195,000
Danger pay $120,000
Ph.D. $95,000
Physicist $89,000
Web Designer $86,000
RN Nurse $79,000
White $71,000
Bachelor’s $68,000
Black $63,000
White Hispanic $62,000
Cuban $60,000
Hispanic $60,000
Indian $58,000
African American $57,000
Teacher $57,000
Math Teacher $57,000
Puerto Rican $56,000
Asian $54,000
Protestant $54,000
Calculus Teacher $52,000
Mexican $50,000
Jew $46,000
LVN Nurse $45,000
Mormon $45,000
Catholic $43,000
Rabbi $43,000
Jewish $40,000
Journalist $31,000
israeliteknight
29 September 2011
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Jew+attorney&l1=
Attorney $99,000
Russia $121,000
White $79,000
Asian $43,000
Japan $80,000
Korea $81,000
China $88,000
U.S. $88,000
U.K. $104,000
India $95,000
Indian $66,000
Jewish $33,000
Catholic $33,000
Israeli no data
Brazil $30,000
Peru $43,000
England $87,000
French $87,000
Mexican $72,000
Cuban $44,000
Black $60,000
Spanish $38,000
israeliteknight
29 September 2011
Jewish and Catholic attorneys earn 21% less than Jewish. Attorney’s from Peru earn 30% more than Jewish and Catholic attorneys, and those from Brazil earn 10% less. Black & Indian attorneys earn twice as much as Jewish and Catholic attorneys. White attorneys earn 2.3 times as much; England, French, and India attorneys earn almost three times as much; and Russia, Iran, and Iraq attorneys earn almost FOUR times as much. Even attorneys in Poland and Argentina earn almost as much as Jewish attorneys.
Too Much Free Time
29 September 2011
“How do we do it?
Indeed Salary Search is based on an index of salary information extracted from over 50 million job postings from thousands of unique sources over the last 12 months. Many job descriptions don’t contain salary information, but there are enough that do to produce statistically significant median salaries for millions of keyword, job title and location combinations – in fact, most job searches you are likely to think of. As new jobs are added each day, the Indeed Salary Search index is automatically updated with fresh salary data, so the salary results are as up-to-date as they could possibly be.”
- Indeed.com
In other words, this data is only relevant for jobs that post salaries online and that recruit using job postings. Also, including “Jewish” “Spanish” “Mexican” “Russian” etc… only picks out job listings that include that word–usually in reference to the type of work or law in the listing; they don’t specify the preferred race of the applicant.
FYI, the search for “Jewish attorney” picks out two job listings, neither of which list salary. I’m not sure where they got the $33K figure, but it’s not from data, much less statistically significant data.
Most of the attorneys I know earn $160K their first year and up from there, Jewish or no. Of course, these are jobs that don’t post listings online–just like most other high paying jobs.
So, Israelitekinght, you never responded to my first question. What are your qualifications for engaging in this discussion, besides bitterness?
Northstar
1 October 2011
Isrealiteknight’s statement “Why don’t you tell US what YOUR qualifications are? You don’t even seem to be able to follow a url, read the US Statistical Abstract correctly, much less grasp the first thing about standard deviations!”
I can follow a url. I aleady went over this a hundred times. An ad for the manager of “Chipotle Mexican Grill” doesn’t tell you much about the average salary for Mexicans in the US. You are not using valid Census data regarding income for the different demographic groups. Don’t obfuscate, lie, fabricate, dissemble. . .all those things twhich are your stock and trade. You are not using VALID data regarding income.
And you assert that an IQ of 122 is MORE THAN SIX standard deviations above 94. That is a ridiculous assertion and proves that you know nothing about standard deviation nor how to apply it.
You have lots of time on your hands to make up your own “facts” and your own ways of doing statistics to support your deranged view of the world.
israeliteknight
1 October 2011
“Most of the attorneys I know earn $160K their first year and up from there, Jewish or no. Of course, these are jobs that don’t post listings online–just like most other high paying jobs.”
As with most Jews, you don’t seem to be able to grasp the concept of “average”. But just to go along with your game, my anecdote cancels your anecdote: what got me to look more closely at this Ashkenazi Jew IQ 122 bs is a Jewish lawyer who makes so little he won’t dare say just how much he does make. But as a putative mathematician, you already know that anecdotes are meaningless in the face of this vast body of scientific and mathematical evidence before your very fingertips, right?
Presumably, you already know that Israel’s TIMSS math score of 462 is based on measuring only the top 10 percent of JEWS in Israel? And perhaps you already know that the gap between the top ten percent and the average in most countries is between one and two standard deviations? For example, the top ten percent in Armenia scored 590, which is 162 points higher than their averge of 428 (and the gap in the Philippines was even larger, at 190 points). Even though we don’t know for sure that this would be the case if Israel had measured ALL the Jews in Israel (as MOST populations routinely do), it’s entirely likely that Israel’s *average* score too would have been 162 points lower than their top ten percent. And this would put Israel’s average score at a whopping 300.
Whew? No wonder Limor Livnet LIED to the world in order to cover this up. This is a score even lower than Ghana (309) and Qatar (307). This is incredibly disingenuous, and *incredibly* misleading. Your AVERAGE score is LOWER than countries which Professor Lynn estimates to have IQs of only 71 and 78.
On TOP of that, the score for the 90th percentile is different from the average score of the top 10% by up to 100 points. For example, the TIMSS math score for the 90th percentile in France was 558, but the average score for the top 10% was 612, or 54 points higher. The difference in Switzerland was 92 points (573 vs. 483). The difference in Canada was 94 points (567 vs. 473). The difference in the Czech Republic was 142 points (485 vs 343).
Yes, for sure, we don’t KNOW this with absolute certainty [yet]. But there’s not a shred of statistical evidence on the entire internet to dispute it is there? Your anecdote about a FEW American Jewish lawyers earning so much, even if it were 100% true (which my own observations suggest it’s not), has zero impact on this this vast statistical record. This would perfectly explain why indeed.com indicates that the AVERAGE American Black earns 42 percent more than the average American Jew, AND why searching for “Jewish doctors” and “Jewish pilots” and “Jewish lawyers” returns salaries lower than those for equivalent professions in Poland, Peru, and Brazil.
Do you still believe the AVERAGE IQ for Ashkenazi Jews is 122? WHERE’S YOUR PROOF?!
Rather than questioning my credentials, why don’t YOU demand credentials (not to mention answers) from Limor Livnet who got PROMOTED for being the best LIAR in town, or at least present your own credentials (or at least admit that you can’t even follow the simplest points above without consulting “experts”, and BIASED sources like Wikipedia).
israeliteknight
1 October 2011
“I can follow a url. I aleady went over this a hundred times. An ad for the manager of ‘Chipotle Mexican Grill’ doesn’t tell you much about the average salary for Mexicans in the US. You are not using valid Census data regarding income for the different demographic groups. Don’t obfuscate, lie, fabricate, dissemble. . .all those things twhich are your stock and trade. You are not using VALID data regarding income.”
http://israeliteidentity.com/jewscensus.htm
“The 2000 Census has been released, but there is a question about the statistics regarding jews. We must know these statistics about jews because of the tremendous influence they have on American life, politics, business, and world affairs.”
Why do Jews not want such things to be known? If the Jews had not demanded that the Census Bureau quit keeping track of all these things, you and I would not now be having this conversation, because everyone would already KNOW what you and I do know now.
“And you assert that an IQ of 122 is MORE THAN SIX standard deviations above 94. That is a ridiculous assertion and proves that you know nothing about standard deviation nor how to apply it.”
Trying to learn about standard deviations from Wikipedia, or many other “american” web sites, will guarantee that you will know less when you finish than when you started. About the best way to explain this is graphically, IF you can follow the first five graphs on the folowing url:
http://fathersmanifesto.net/timss.htm
Technically, the standard deviation for standardized tests like this is 100 points. This is the way they are designed. But when measuring the difference between countries, a standard deviation of 100 shows way too much overlap. While the chart in the TIMSS publication shows that our top 75% percentile didn’t even score as high as the average for Canada, a graph using 100 as the standard deviation shows too much of an overlap with Canada. A graph with a standard deviation of 50 points still shows too much of an overlap. The graph which shows the closest fit to the TIMSS chart is one with a standard deviation of 35.
What this means is that the most effective way to measure the capability of groups of employees is not standardized test scores or IQ tests, but to keep track of how the free enterprise system rewards and punishes them. If there was even the remotest chance that ONE Ashkenazi Jew might have an IQ of 122, don’t you think Israel would pay its teachers a bit more than $1,100 per month, on par with countries with proven IQ’s and productivity levels as low as 75 IQ points?
And for all we know, the average salary for Israeli teachers were also fluffed up just as Limor Livnet fluffed up your TIMSS score (which might explain why not even Israeli statistics are consistent on this very simple calculation).
Northstar
1 October 2011
Standard deviation for IQ tests is 15 or 16, depending upon whether one is using the Wechsler or the Stanford-Binet intelligence scales. You assert that an IQ of 122 is six standard deviations above 94, showing that you don’t know what standard deviation is. You use your erroneous calculation as proof for your statement that no Jew coud ever have an IQ of 122. You also think that this statement has relevance, “If there was even the remotest chance that ONE Ashkenazi Jew might have an IQ of 122, don’t you think Israel would pay its teachers a bit more than $1,100 per month.” Not only do you need to take a course in elementary statistics, you also need to take a course in Logic.
I asked you before if you have a post-secondary degree, and it seems to be that the answer is “no.” However, I don’t doubt that you have spent time in the pen, up the river, in the big house.
israeliteknight
1 October 2011
“Standard deviation for IQ tests is 15 or 16, depending upon whether one is using the Wechsler or the Stanford-Binet intelligence scales. You assert that an IQ of 122 is six standard deviations above 94, showing that you don’t know what standard deviation is. You use your erroneous calculation as proof for your statement that no Jew coud ever have an IQ of 122″
The Wechsler “intelligence scales” don’t correlate with anything, and even the top math experts in the US can’t tell you why. The one thing that does correlate well with most racial differences, not just intelligence or income, is the GRE quantitative score, which shows an even closer correlation with these racial differences than GRE verbal (which is what got this thread started).
And the POINT about using indeed.com is that there’s a closer correlation by race between incomes and test scores/IQ, than there is with income data by race from the Census Bureau or Bureau of Labor Statistics. There’s nothing at all difficult about that. You don’t even need to know what it means that r-squared is 0.92!
Northstar
1 October 2011
Indeed.com doesn’t provide valid data on “incomes” by race or any other demographic variable. To use it for your correlation is not real science.
israeliteknight
2 October 2011
“Indeed.com doesn’t provide valid data on “incomes” by race or any other demographic variable. To use it for your correlation is not real science.”
You’re living in a country where lawyers make about half of what you think they make, and whose Census Bureau keeps real close tabs on their incomes, even those “that don’t post listings online–just like most other high paying jobs”. Oil workers and securities employees earn twice as much as lawyers in this country, people in my profession earn three times as much, and a number of my employees earn 5 times as much. I’ve seen all the resumes and know exactly how much those “that don’t post listings online–just like most other high paying jobs” are paying, and have fired more lawyers than I’ve hired. I’ve taken every possible statistics course, including probabilities and statistics (offshore) which isn’t even offered in most American schools now. The argument about why Israel doesn’t pay its teachers more than Pakistan is in the same class as “Most of the attorneys I know earn $160K their first year and up from there, Jewish or no”.
Your point about Jewish lawyers being based on too few data points on indeed.com MIGHT have been valid–except that ANY search for ANY profession including Jews (teachers, doctors, pilots, etc.) returns the same igloo room temperature IQ. It’s also 100% consistent with the Israeli report which complains that half of Israel’s public employees earn less than $1,366 per month.
The following source agrees, and is entirely consistent with indeed.com
http://www.worldsalaries.org/israel.shtml
By these estimates, the average salary for Jews across the world puts their average IQ at 72, at BEST:
http://fathersmanifesto.net/salaries.htm
israeliteknight
3 October 2011
“Standard deviation for IQ tests is 15 or 16, depending upon whether one is using the Wechsler or the Stanford-Binet intelligence scales. You assert that an IQ of 122 is six standard deviations above 94, showing that you don’t know what standard deviation is. ”
What we DO know with absolute certainty is that Israel’s 2007 TIMSS math score of 463 is 11 points LOWER than Malaysia (IQ of 92) and 36 points higher than Jordan (IQ of 87).
What we ALSO know with absolute certainty, because Limor Livnet told me so, is that it’s only the top ten percent of JEWS in Israel (Arabs need not apply), who participated in TIMSS.
What WE know, and what YOU might never “know” [much less understand], is that the AVERAGE score for the top ten percent of most countries is 200 points higher than the AVERAGE for the whole country in countries which met the 90% sampling requirement (which most countries other than Israel DID meet).
Therefore, with mathematical precision, we can conservatively put Israel’s AVERAGE TIMSS score at LOWER than 263, not 463, putting Israel 44 points LOWER than Qatar (IQ 78, who DID meet the sampling requirements), 46 points LOWER than Ghana (IQ 71, who DID meet the sampling requirements), 66 points lower than Saudi Arabia (IQ 83, who DID meet the sampling requirements).
What these 200+ point gaps between the top ten percent and the average score reveal is that there are certain groups within each country who DO understand math very well, while the vast majority never do. The very small standard deviation of 35 points, one third of the 100 points the test was designed to, indicates that these elite groups have academic skills and knowledge which are very similar across the entire group. Of course it’s unfortunate, and of serious concern, that this small elite group in the US scores only 485, which is 127 points lower than France, 90 points lower than Switzerland, 82 points lower than Canada, 79 points lower than Sweden, 65 points lower than Germany (who themselves scored suspiciously low), 28 points lower than Greece (who already went bankrupt), and even 104 points lower than Australia.
Yet Israel’s REAL TIMSS math score was 245 points lower than OUR already very low score.
Again, we find Jews are in the range of people with an IQ lower than 72. So even if we assume that IQ’s this low follow a standard deviation of 16, as in countries with higher IQ’s do, then an Iq OF 122 is 3.1 standard deviations higher.
The problem, of course, is that we KNOW with mathematical certainty (just as we know that the top ten percent of each country has a standard deviation less than a third of the rest of the country) that data at these extreme ends do NOT have such a high standard deviation. This 3.1 standard deviation, if it were to be measured properly, would be at least 9.3 SD.
Would you like to go to Israel to prove it? We don’t need to go. We already know. All we need to do is correlate IQ with income, just as this forum has correlated IQ with GRE verbal, to again establish that the low incomes of ALL professions in Israel, particularly Israeli teachers, is due to their igloo room temperature IQs );
israeliteknight
3 October 2011
This is the REST of the story, and it will be true for the REST of time:
800 150.00000
790 148.00000
780 147.13953
770 145.78641
760 144.43329
750 143.08017
740 141.72705
730 140.37393
720 139.02081
710 137.66769
700 137.00000
690 134.96144
680 133.60832
670 132.25520
660 130.90208
650 129.54896
640 128.19584
630 126.84272
620 125.48960
610 124.13647
600 122.78335
590 121.67854
580 120.35515
570 119.03176
560 117.70837
550 116.38498
540 115.06158
530 113.73819
520 112.41480
510 111.09141
500 109.76802 White
490 108.44463 Asian
480 107.12123
470 105.79784
460 104.47445 White Hispanic
450 103.15106 Indian
440 101.82767
430 100.50427 Mexican
420 99.18088
410 97.85749 Puerto Rican
400 96.53410
390 95.21071 Black
380 93.88732
370 92.56392
360 91.24053
350 89.91714
340 88.59375
330 87.27036
320 85.94697
310 84.62357
300 83.30018
290 81.97679
280 80.65340
270 79.33001
260 78.00662
250 76.68322 Jew
240 75.35983
230 74.03644
220 72.71305
210 71.38966
200 70.06627
190 68.74287
180 67.41948
170 66.09609
160 64.77270
150 63.44931
140 62.12591
130 60.80252
israeliteknight
4 October 2011
“As for your assumption that math SAT differences between RI and IA can be attributed to differences in percentage of Catholics — you cannot validly make that claim without actual population or sample data, of test scores as a function of religion, to back you up.”
To claim that religion or being Catholic has nothing to do with IQ, test scores, or poor academic achievement (or all three), is to claim that Italy didn’t make its fall from an absolute top world power to scoring lower than Iran had nothing to do with 98% of the population now being Catholic. While Professor Lynn is still fairly generous with estimating Italy’s IQ, putting it right at the top for Western European nations, their average 2008 TIMSS advanced math score of 453 was 38 points lower than Iran (IQ of 84) and 102 points lower than Lebanon (IQ of 86):
http://fathersmanifesto.net/iqashkenazijews.htm
Even worse, Italy’s 90th percentile scored a whopping 61 points lower than Iran’s 90th percentile and 54 points lower than Lebanon’s (and 109 point lower than Russia’s), an indicator that Italy is not on a path to recovery, and perhaps is doing even worse than us.
Just because Catholics move to this once-Protestant nation doesn’t mean that their IQ increases, and in fact the Catholic brainwashing which got them all there in the first place seems to intensify here.
What other possible explanation could there be for the 235 SAT math point difference between WHITES in Iowa and WHITES in New York?
http://fathersmanifesto.net/satrace2004.htm
Should an Italian, or a Pollack, or a Brazilian (the MOST Catholic country) be permitted to call himself White?
israeliteknight
4 October 2011
Catholics consider themselves to be a separate, and superior, race, the only race which will go to heaven. If so, why would any Protestant want to be there with such a huge group of losers?
israeliteknight
6 October 2011
If we were to compare the monthly salary of $9,122 for a German pilot with a standard deviation of $730, to the salary of $1,300 for an Israeli teacher with a standard deviation of $104, you can see how much the standard deviation changes depending on which end of the spectrum it falls on. From the German pilot’s perspective, the Israeli teacher’s salary is 10.7 standard deviations lower. But from the Israeli teacher’s perspective, the German pilot’s salary is 75 standard deviations HIGHER.
Put another way, the odds of a German pilot earning less than $4,743 per month are one in a billion, and the odds of him earning less than $3,283 are one in a QUADRILLION. But from the Israeli teacher’s perspective, the odds of her earning more than $1,924 per month are one in a billion, and her odds of earning $2,132 are one in a quadrillion.
This is an excellent example of how there’s no overlap in incomes (or productivity) between these two separate and distinct groups. And it’s a far better way to measure their contribution to society or to the economy than IQ tests, or GRE scores, or even TIMSS scores (regardless of how hard they tried to accurately measure such things).
http://fathersmanifesto.net/salaries.htm
http://fathersmanifesto.net/gaussiansalariesteacherspilotsworld.png
israeliteknight
6 October 2011
“Our public schools are NOT the result of ignorance or inattention or deprivation. They are exactly what the ayatollahs of education have ‘planned, plotted, and executed’ over many decades. This is why I have been telling my side, futilely, for years that we cannot ‘explain’ it to the Education Mafia or convince them of anything. It is not as if we are going to show them something that has escaped their attention, or tell them something they have not already thought of.”
Which is really the only way to explain the following:
90th Percentile 1995
France 558
Switzerland 483
Canada 473
Sweden 487
Germany 489
Czech Republic 343
Australia 496
Austria 487
Italy 432
United States 383
Denmark 526
Slovenia 577
90th Percentile 2008
Armenia 562
Iran 629
Lebanon 622
Netherlands 610
Norway 546
Philippines 494
Russia 677
Slovenia 567
Sweden 544
US (from 1995) 383
To dumb down even our top ten percent, to the point that they score 3 standard deviations lower than Iran’s top ten percent, could only have been accomplished with a specific purpose in mind.
We didn’t participate in any 12th grade TIMSS study SINCE the above 1995 results were revealed for all to hear and see. But now you can’t even find this data on the NCES web site without knowing exactly where to look:
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs98/twelfth/
Why not? Does the education mafia know that if our 12th graders HAD participated in 12th grade TIMSS in 2008 that they would have performed even WORSE than the above utterly astonishing LOW test scores?
And exactly who does everyone on this forum believes controls the education mafia?
israeliteknight
7 October 2011
Singapore, which is about the same population as Israel, has a detailed list of all their salaries by profession, including: physicians, engineers, computer programmers, physiotherapists, accountants, nurses, flight attendants, office clerks, mechanics, furniture finishers, garment cutters, bus drivers, carpenters, hotel receptionist, salesperson, etc., just as we and most Western nations do. But try to find how much a Jewish carpenter in Israel makes and you come up blank. In fact, the only professions Israel lists are: utilities, financial, transport, real estate, construction, education, and hotels. Are there no pilots, or engineers, or physicans, or nurses, or physiotherapists, or computer programmers in israel? Or are Jews just too dumb to be able to figure out how much these professions pay? Or both?
http://www.worldsalaries.org/singapore.shtml
http://www.worldsalaries.org/israel.shtml
Original JB
8 December 2011
God, a bigger nutcase I have not seen on the Internets than this Knight guy.
Dan Kurt
20 December 2011
Interesting thread.
Question: When I was in college in 1959 there was a young man circa 17 who took the Navy Flight Officer exams given by the Navy to interested students. One of the exams was an IQ test that was entirely visual. It was not the Ravens. It was in color and illustrations depicted many tools. There were 116 questions. One of the testing officers made a big deal over the fact that the young man scored a perfect 116 out of 116. He had never heard of anyone finishing the test in the allotted time let alone scored a perfect result. What was the test and what was the IQ of a perfect 116/116 result?
Question: In 1963 one of the students, age circa 21, in my college took the GRE and scored 800 verbal, 800 quantitative, and 960 on his subject exam which was either Chemistry or Biology. Could anyone suggest what his IQ was given the above scores and that the test was given in 1963.
Dan Kurt
Dextrology
24 February 2012
Israelknight gives HBD people a bad name. He reminds me of other delusional con-artists like the Flat-Earthers and the Time Cube guy.
israeliteknight
25 February 2012
“Israelknight gives HBD people a bad name. He reminds me of other delusional con-artists like the Flat-Earthers and the Time Cube guy.”
And THIS is how you dispute the correlation between GRE verbal scores and IQ?
Or are you just tying to prove that some races, like yours, are totally and completely uneducable, no matter how much money us honkies throw at it?
Dextrology
27 February 2012
I actually think there is good evidence IQ correlates with verbal GRE, so that’s not the problem. Nor do I think the GRE proves the white race (my race) is uneducable. I simply think your excessively long, rambling posts that occasionally make use of made-up statistics will help liberals paint HBD-ers as nutcases, that’s all. You are crazy, you know that, right?
israeliteknight
23 March 2012
“I actually think there is good evidence IQ correlates with verbal GRE, so that’s not the problem. Nor do I think the GRE proves the white race (my race) is uneducable”
All test scores show that Catholics, who claim to be White, are uneducable. Catholics in states like Rhode Island actually score lower than Blacks in places like North Dakota. However, that’s not the point. Forgetting about this ad hominen attack for a moment, let’s approach this question from a different perspective:
2007 TIMSS Math Score http://timss.bc.edu/timss2007/intl_reports.html
In 2007, the highest scoring countries who took TIMSS math were Singapore where the average math score of the 6,018 students who took the test was 610, and Hong Kong where 4,972 students averaged 584. The lowest scoring students were 5,100 students in Ghana who averaged just 261, and Botswana where 5,150 students averages just 377. Seven students in Ghana scored higher than 558, BUT: none of them scored higher than 657. We know that NO Ghanan student scored as high as the AVERAGE for Singapore, whose average IQ is estimated at 106. Seven students in Botswana scored higher than 587, but just like Ghana, NONE of them scored higher than 657.
This is absolute solid statistical evidence that at least in these two countries, which represent a total African population of 27 million, NO Black student has an IQ higher than 106.
Is this MY fault, dextrology?
israeliteknight
28 March 2012
Country Lynn IQ Pisa 2006
a.. Hong Kong 107 549
b.. Korea, South 106 547
i.. Netherlands 102 531
l.. Switzerland 101 530
ab.. Canada 97 527
c.. Japan 105 523
o.. New Zealand 100 522
m.. Belgium 100 520
v.. Australia 98 520
ad.. Estonia 97 515
g.. Germany 102 504
ak.. Slovakia 96 504
k.. Sweden 101 502
Scotland
ay.. Ireland 93 501
u.. France 98 496
q.. United Kingdom 100 495
s.. Poland 99 495
r.. Hungary 99 491
j.. Luxembourg 101 490
z.. Norway 98 490
af.. Latvia 97 486
ag.. Lithuania 97 486
t.. Spain 99 480
aj.. Russia 96 476
bs.. Azerbaijan 87 476
aa.. United States 98 474
bj.. Croatia 90 467
aq.. Portugal 95 466
h.. Italy 102 462
be.. Greece 92 459
as.. Israel 94 442
am.. Uruguay 96 427
bl.. Turkey 90 424
bh.. Thailand 91 417
at.. Romania 94 415
aw.. Bulgaria 93 413
av.. Chile 93 411
bx.. Mexico 87 406
bn.. Indonesia 89 391
bv.. Jordan 87 384
ah.. Argentina 96 381
bq.. Colombia 88 370
da.. Tunisia 84 365
ec.. Qatar 78 318
bw.. Kyrgyzstan 87 311
israeliteknight
28 March 2012
These are IQ’s adjusted to create a linear relationship with PISA math scores:
Country Pisa IQ Pisa 2006
a.. Hong Kong 107 549
b.. Korea, South 107 547
i.. Netherlands 105 531
l.. Switzerland 105 530
ab.. Canada 104 527
c.. Japan 104 523
o.. New Zealand 104 522
m.. Belgium 103 520
v.. Australia 104 520
ad.. Estonia 103 515
g.. Germany 102 504
ak.. Slovakia 101 504
k.. Sweden 101 502
Scotland
ay.. Ireland 101 501
u.. France 100 496
q.. United Kingdom 100 495
s.. Poland 100 495
r.. Hungary 99 491
j.. Luxembourg 100 490
z.. Norway 100 490
af.. Latvia 100 486
ag.. Lithuania 99 486
t.. Spain 99 480
aj.. Russia 98 476
bs.. Azerbaijan 98 476
aa.. United States 98 474
bj.. Croatia 97 467
aq.. Portugal 96 466
h.. Italy 96 462
be.. Greece 96 459
as.. Israel 94 442
am.. Uruguay 92 427
bl.. Turkey 91 424
bh.. Thailand 91 417
at.. Romania 90 415
aw.. Bulgaria 90 413
av.. Chile 90 411
bx.. Mexico 89 406
bn.. Indonesia 87 391
bv.. Jordan 87 384
ah.. Argentina 86 381
bq.. Colombia 85 370
da.. Tunisia 84 365
ec.. Qatar 78 318
bw.. Kyrgyzstan 77 311
d.. Korea, North 105
israeliteknight
28 March 2012
And this is the relationship between IQ and alcohol consumption, with IQ adjusted to achieve linearity:
Country Oz Alcohol Adjusted IQ
Korea 151.6 115
Italy 126.2 107
Slovenia 126.3 107
France 126.3 106
Austria 121.5 104.5
Germany 113.6 102
Switzerland 109.5 101
Australia 99.8 98
Denmark 101.1 98
Hungary 92.6 95.5
N Zealand 90.5 95
Thailand 64.0 85
Sweden 60.6 84
Lithuania 50.5 80
Norway 42.1 78
Russia 42.1 78
Iceland 36.7 75
India 30.3 74
Bangladesh 27.8 73
Israel 16.8 69
Africa 5.9 65
Guinea 1.7 63
Too Much Free Time
28 March 2012
You do realize that adjusting your “data” means your claimed results are meaningless, right?
israeliteknight
28 March 2012
“You do realize that adjusting your ‘data’ means your claimed results are meaningless, right?”
It’s only meaningless if you don’t or can’t understand what that means.
What you SHOULD have done, if you want anyone to take you seriously, is ask for the original data, or at least ask how much IQ’s had to be adjusted to get linearity.
There are a number of reasons that such data is not linear. For example, in the correlation between IQ and alcohol consumption, 5 countries didn’t need to be adjusted at all, but Sweden, Norway, and Denmark had to be adjusted a lot, downward, by 17 IQ points.
I know why. Why don’t you ask why? Or at least find out for yourself. Or at least think about it.
One country, the one with the highest alcohol consumption, had to have their IQ increased 7 points.
israeliteknight
28 March 2012
I should add that, prior to the adjustment, the Pearson Coefficient was 0.7789, which means that alcohol consumption is a PRIMARY factor in increased IQ. This means there ARE other factors, and also that the CAUSATION could be one way, both ways, or involve many other factors (like in Russia, where the reason for the relatively low alcohol consumption is 80 years of Communism where families don’t have enough MONEY to buy booze).
Too Much Free Time
28 March 2012
No, actually, adjusting your data to fit a curve means it’s no longer data, just a curve. Listing the points on the curve is a silly waste of time — if you actually wanted to discuss the curve, you could have just put down the equation. If you wanted to adjust the data, put down the data.
As for why I didn’t ask for original data, I was merely pointing out that you’re an idiot. Purely an ad hominem attack for my amusement (although I suppose it also suggests you’re not credible).
I didn’t ask for any background information because:
A) I don’t trust your original data, because your data sources have been faulty in the past (see above) and you have been incapable of comprehending that fact (see above).
Additionally:
B) I know you don’t understand how to use standard deviations (see above), so your calculation of the correlation is highly suspect.
C) Bringing alcohol into this “discussion” is completely extraneous (and your additional posts are out of nowhere). Are you just ranting because the Pope is preaching in Cuba or some other perceived indignity set you off against a group you mistakenly perceive as being less worthy than you are?
israeliteknight
29 March 2012
You debate like 2 little girls in a sandbox throwing sand on each other. If you don’t believe the data is accurate, you need to CITE something credible that disputes it. You debate like a little girl because you have the brains of a little girl (no, that’s an insult to the little WHITE girls that I know, you have the brains of a silly jew). The only reason a silly jew claims that he doesn’t “trust your original data” is that it’s impossible for him to ever understand it.
You really think Christians care about or pay attention to what the AIDS infested, AIDS carrying sodomite pope does? His only connection to God is how God used AIDS to KILL one million of his AIDS infested, AIDS carrying sodomite priests around the world (including 70% of the priests in the US).
The only question or concern any Christian in this putative Christian nation should have about the Pope is: when is God going to finally take HIM out with AIDS, and why hasn’t He done it much sooner (before they infested and killed 25 million people around the world)?
Too Much Free Time
30 March 2012
Woah! The Pope? And AIDS? Where did your head go? Forget to take your Clozapine today? Seriously though, when you rant like that, you just make yourself look bad.
More to the point, why should I cite to something to disprove “data” that you never provided a provenance for? Moreover, there’s nothing to understand or fail to understand about data. You might claim I don’t understand the conclusions you draw from that “data,” but that’s hardly a claim that I don’t understand that data you claim to have.
I will say this, though. Baiting you is fun, even if too damn easy. Sometimes I make bets on what race you’re going to go off about next. Let me guess, you think I’m….Catholic? Ooo wait, that’s not even a race!
israeliteknight
30 March 2012
Catholics are a race. They themselves claim that they are the only race who will be in heaven. And the gap in standardized test scores between Catholics and Protestants, both between states and between nations, is more than a standard deviation, much bigger than the race gap between Hispanics and Blacks. “WHITES” in New York and Rhode Island (the most Catholic states) have chronically and consistently scored 236 SAT points lower than Whites in the least Catholic states, like Iowa and North Dakota.
http://fathersmanifesto.net/satrace2004.htm#236
This is on par with the standard deviation (76 point) gap in 12th grade TIMSS math scores between Catholic countries like Spain and Italy (476) and non-Catholic countries like Denmark (547), the Netherlands (560), and Sweden (552).
http://fathersmanifesto.net/timss.htm
How else would you expect a Christian to respond to your insinuation that Christians are somehow influenced by the sodomite pope visiting Mexico. Even though I own property not far from where he’s visiting, I wouldn’t spend 2 cents to hear one word from this sodomite.
israeliteknight
30 March 2012
Following is a World Health Organization study which shows the relative traffic safety (or lack thereof) for select countries. “Deaths” on this chart is the number of deaths per 100,000 vehicles in that countrey, “IQ” is that estimated by Lynn, and “Adjusted IQ” is Lynn IQ adjusted and assumes a linear relationship between national intelligence, and the ability to design, build, and police safe roads. Needless to say, when a country like the Central African Republic has one death per TEN CARS each year, it’s an outlier which needs to be dropped off. Ironically, the IQ for Switzerland, one of the safest countries at 6.9 deaths per 100,000 cars, had to be adjusted downward one point, while the IQ for Uganda, one of the most dangrous at 780 deaths per 100,000 cars, had to be adjusted downward, a lot.
Of interest to “too much bs” would be Israel which has a safety record worse than Ghana but slightly better than Afghanistan, had to have their IQ dropped almost 20 points just to get them on the curve.
Country Deaths IQ IQ Adjusted
Malta 3.9 95 100
Switzerland 6.9 101 100
Japan 7.3 105 100
Germany 8.9 102 100
Netherlands 8.9 102 100
Norway 9.0 98 100
Sweden 11.1 101 99.5
Italy 13.1 102 102
Spain 13.1 97 62
England, Wales 14.0 100 99.5
Canada 14.4 97 99
Uruguay 15.2 96 99
USA 17.0 98 99
Korea 33.9 105 97
Marshall Is. 40.2 84 96
Thailand 48.8 91 95
United Arab Emirates 60.2 83 94
China 66.5 100 93
Iraq 86.1 87 91
Libya 117.0 84 88
Congo 117.1 73 87.5
Eriteria 133.2 68 86
India 145.3 81 85
S. Africa 174.5 72 81.5
Ghana 199.2 71 78.6
Israel 239.2 94 74.5
Afghanistan 243.2 83 74
Guinea-Bisau 262.8 63 71.5
Kenya 288.1 72 69
Angola 350.9 69 62
Egypt 371.7 83 59.8
Gambia 374.5 64 59.6
Kenya table A.2 374.5 72 59.3
Tanzania 449.0 72 51
Niger 749.4 67 18
Uganda 780.4 73 15
Sao Tome 1640.7 59 -
Ethiopia 1651.4 63
israeliteknight
1 April 2012
This is an extrapolation of the above IQ/GRE Verbal curve with various US races, states, and religions:
800 150.00000
790 148.00000
780 147.13953
770 145.78641
760 144.43329
750 143.08017
740 141.72705
730 140.37393
720 139.02081
710 137.66769
700 137.00000
690 134.96144
680 133.60832
670 132.25520
660 130.90208
650 129.54896
640 128.19584
630 126.84272
620 125.48960 Protestant
610 124.13647
600 122.78335
590 121.67854 Iowa
580 120.35515
570 119.03176
560 117.70837
550 116.38498
540 115.06158
530 113.73819
520 112.41480
510 111.09141 Rhode Island
500 109.76802 White
490 108.44463 Asian
480 107.12123
470 105.79784
460 104.47445 White Hispanic
450 103.15106 Indian
440 101.82767
430 100.50427 Mexican
420 99.18088
410 97.85749 Puerto Rican
400 96.53410
390 95.21071 Black
380 93.88732 Catholic
370 92.56392
360 91.24053
350 89.91714
340 88.59375
330 87.27036
320 85.94697
310 84.62357
300 83.30018
290 81.97679
280 80.65340
270 79.33001
260 78.00662
250 76.68322
240 75.35983
230 74.03644
220 72.71305
210 71.38966 Jewish
200 70.06627
190 68.74287
180 67.41948
170 66.09609
160 64.77270
150 63.44931
140 62.12591
130 60.80252
israeliteknight
1 April 2012
The point is that us Protestants have nothing in common with Catholics, like the 6 Catholics now on the Supreme Court (much less the three Jews), the blabbering Catholic talking heads like Hannity and O’Reilly, the blabbering Jew Rush Limbaugh, and that the reason Catholics seem to have such a close affinity for Blacks is that they’re dumber than Blacks.
Actually, the above score for Blacks is only for college bound Blacks, who might not be at all representative of the average American Black. The IAEP math study showed that Mozambique scored higher than Washington, DC, at a time when 85% of those who took the test there were Blacks. Would I be surprised if we discovered that American Blacks don’t perform as well as some African Blacks? Not really.
israeliteknight
4 April 2012
Another thing that throws off (or artificially inflates) our standardized test scores like TIMSS is the fact that more than one third of our 18 year olds aren’t even included in the testing process.
TIMSS Coverage Index B-15 Table B.5 Computation of TCI: Estimated Percentage of School-Leaving Age Cohort Covered by TIMSS Sample (or pg. 18 of C_Full.pdf) – Final Year of Secondary School. This is what the report shows:
Australia 68.1%
Austria 75.9%
Canada 70.3%
Cyprus 47.9% (Private and vocational schools excluded)
Czech Republic 77.6%
Denmark 57.7%
France 83.9%
Germany 75.3%
Greece 10.0% (Only students having taken advanced mathematics and physics included)
Hungary 65.3%
Iceland 54.5%
Italy 51.5%
Latvia 3.0% (Only students having taken physics included)
Lithuania 42.5%
Netherlands 78.0% (Apprenticeship programs excluded)
New Zealand 70.5%
Norway 84.0%
Russian Federation 48.1% (Vocational schools and non-Russian speaking students excluded)
Slovenia 87.8%
South Africa 48.9%
Sweden 70.6%
Switzerland 81.9%
United States 63.1%
So our very low TIMSS math score at the 12th grade level of 461 (99 points lower than the Netherlands), MIGHT have been as low as 361 had the lowest scoring one third of our 18 year olds been included in the average score:
Ranking, Scores For 12th-Graders’ Math
Top tier (well above U.S.):
Netherlands (560)
Sweden (552)
Denmark (547)
Switzerland (540)
Iceland (534)
Norway (528)
France (523)
New Zealand (522)
Australia (522)
Canada (519)
Austria (518)
Slovenia (512)
Germany (495)
Hungary (483)
Middle tier:
Italy (476)
Russian Federation (471)
Lithuania (469)
Czech Republic (466)
United States (461)
Bottom tier:
Cypress (446)
South Africa (356)
Source: Education Department
Too Much Free Time
4 April 2012
Who cares? Most other countries don’t achieve full coverage either — no countries hit over 90%. Plus, I can think of tons of alternative scenarios to this artificially inflating scores. For instance, does this indicate that private school attendees don’t take the test? That could artificially deflate the scores. Additionally, the percentage of graduating seniors that take the test (which I believe is the actual percentage, not merely 18-year olds), also hides non-graduating 18-year olds and drop-outs. The point is, this data doesn’t show whether the TIMSS data is inflated or deflated.
I do appreciate that you indicated a source, but it would be nice if you included a hyperlink since I was unable to quickly retrieve the actual table you rely upon.
Also, your notion that Catholics and Protestants are categorically different is ludicrous. The terms refer to adherents of two broad swathes of Christianity, not race. As a matter of fact, all Protestants are descended from Catholics — since the Protestant movement is a split of the Catholic religion.
israeliteknight
15 April 2012
Major SAT Math Score 2006 US Statistical Abstract, Table 674, Money Income of Households, 2003
Math 607 $62,000
Asian Men 575 $65,555
Physics 574 $50,000
Engineering 553 $49,800
White Males 542 $53,705
Asian Women 541 $45,843
White Females 507 $37,556
Average 505 $43,318
Hispanic Males 489 $38,836
Biology 480 $36,300
Computer & Info Tech 479 $46,300
Humanities/writers 478 $44,000
Economics 465 $60,000
Sociology 464 $35,000
Hispanic Females 449 $27,158
Education 446 $37,900
Black Males 431 $34,901
Black Females 416 $24,406
israeliteknight
15 April 2012
These are incomes adjusted to achieve linearity:
Major SAT Math Score Income Adjusted for linearity
Math 607 $70,000
Asian Men 575 $61,000
Physics 574 $61,000
Engineering 553 $56,000
White Males 542 $53,000
Asian Women 541 $52,000
White Females 507 $43,000
Average 505 $43,318
Hispanic Males 489 $38,836
Biology 480 $36,000
Computer & Info Tech 479 $36,000
Humanities/writers 478 $36,000
Economics 465 $31,600
Sociology 464 $32,000
Hispanic Females 449 $27,158
Education 446 $27,000
Black Males 431 $22,300
Black Females 416 $18,500
israeliteknight
15 April 2012
And this is the amount by which incomes by race and sex and major need to be adjusted:
Major Income Adjusted By
Math $8,000
Asian Men -$4,555
Physics $11,000
Engineering $6,200
White Males -$705
Asian Women $6,157
White Females $5,444
Average $0
Hispanic Males $0
Biology -$300
Computer & Info Tech -$10,300
Humanities/writers -$8,000
Economics -$28,400
Sociology -$3,000
Hispanic Females $0
Education -$10,900
Black Males -$12,601
Black Females -$5,906
israeliteknight
15 April 2012
Reblogged this on Israelite Identity.
israeliteknight
15 April 2012
What this indicates is that the most overpaid major are economics students who earn $28,400 more than their demonstrated math skills suggest they should earn. Might this be because the demand for economics majors far outstrips their supply, as more and more American students become math-disabled at the same time we need more economists? Might the same thing be true for Computer and information technology majors who right now are paid $10,300 more than their math skills suggest they should be paid? And for education majors who earn $10,900 more?
Conversely, the most underpaid major are physics students who earn $11,000 LESS than their math skills indicate they should earn. Math majors fall right behing them, earning $8,000 less than we would expect, and engineering majors earn $6,200 less.
Black males earn $12,601 and Black females earn $5.906 more than their math skills indicate they should earn. Could this be the end result of decades of invidious discrimination against Whites through affirmative action? Or just because they offer employers other skills which don’t require an understanding of math? Or both?
israeliteknight
18 April 2012
“Who cares? Most other countries don’t achieve full coverage either — no countries hit over 90%. Plus, I can think of tons of alternative scenarios to this artificially inflating scores. For instance, does this indicate that private school attendees don’t take the test? That could artificially deflate the scores. Additionally, the percentage of graduating seniors that take the test (which I believe is the actual percentage, not merely 18-year olds), also hides non-graduating 18-year olds and drop-outs. The point is, this data doesn’t show whether the TIMSS data is inflated or deflated.”
Even though our scores are very low compared to most other civilized nations (which I no longer consider the US to be), they are still artificially inflated by three means:
1) The one fourth of our 17 year olds who aren’t in high school do not take the test.
2) American private schools, which score as much as a standard deviation higher than our public schools, ARE included. Even though they’re only 11% of all American students, they could have been as much as 40% of those taking the test.
3) We don’t even meet the simple international sampling requirements which almost every other country DID meet.
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/2001034.pdf
See Table 391 of that url. This is the percent of 17 year olds enrolled in high schools:
Belgium 93%
Canada 83%
Finland 81.7%
France 79.7%
Germany 91%
Ireland 73%
Japan 94%
Netherlands 85%
New Zealand 69%
Norway 93%
Portugal 81%
Spain 73%
Sweden 97%
Switzerland 85%
Turkey 22%
UK 66%
US 74%
If we HAD met the sampling requirements, AND if we had included the 26% of American 17 year olds who dropped out (perhaps mostly Blacks), and if we had separated the public school scores from the private school, we would have scored at least one standard deviation lower, making the following list a far more accurate representation of the state of American public education:
Ranking, Scores For 12th-Graders’ Math
Top tier (well above U.S.):
Netherlands (560)
Sweden (552)
Denmark (547)
Switzerland (540)
Iceland (534)
Norway (528)
France (523)
New Zealand (522)
Australia (522)
Canada (519)
Austria (518)
Slovenia (512)
Germany (495)
Hungary (483)
Middle tier:
Italy (476)
Russian Federation (471)
Lithuania (469)
Czech Republic (466)
United States (361, rather than 461)
Bottom tier:
Cypress (446)
South Africa (356)
Do I really believe that our scores would have been this low had the NCES not manipulated the data?
No. I really believe they would have been even LOWER that this.
israeliteknight
20 April 2012
“Also, your notion that Catholics and Protestants are categorically different is ludicrous. The terms refer to adherents of two broad swathes of Christianity, not race. As a matter of fact, all Protestants are descended from Catholics — since the Protestant movement is a split of the Catholic religion.”
You know less about Catholics than you do about Gaussian Distribution. Catholics are the most rabid racists around, which has nothing to do with God, Scripture, and Protestants:
1) Catholics are guaranteed that only they will be in heaven.
2) While the Catholic church claims that it’s not illegal for a Catholic to marry a non-Catholic, they make it so difficult (and undesirable) that it almost never happens. The offspring of any such marriage are so confused that they don’t propagate either race.
3) While they appear to be able to speak English, their understanding of English and their ability to reason in English is on par with their math skills (which I’m beginning to believe is even worse than that for Blacks, explaining why they have such a close affinity with Blacks).
4) To “legalize” gay marriage (as 6 of the states with the highest percentage of Catholics have done) BEFORE the other shoe has even dropped on the gay priest scandal, completey and totally removes them from God, His Law, and us Protestants.
israeliteknight
20 April 2012
SAT scores for WHITE boys in New York:
Reading 520
Math 533
Writing 511
WHITE boys in Iowa
Reading 615
Math 636
Writing 585
Difference is 272 points
Reading 95
Math 103
Writing 74
Such HUGE differences (one standard deviation) are always associated with racial differences, not religious differences. If GRE verbal scores track IQ in the same way SAT verbal does, this is about 15 IQ points.
Christoper Lehan
21 May 2012
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